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-   -   Advertising on Clubtread is WAY OVER THE TOP!! (https://forums.clubtread.com/9-site-feedback-help-suggestions/86946-advertising-clubtread-way-over-top.html)

zeljkok 11-26-2017 07:28 PM

agreed with 2 above posts. CT situation is not about single thing (i.e. adds or interface or ...) but rather about mismanagement. Dayle tried for awhile and I give her gazillion of credits -- small perks, awesome background map based project, which I suspect she was told to simply abandon, etc -- but now its back to same as before, even worse. I feel those of us that still hang around and contribute care about CT 10x times more than those who own it.

Ultimately this would be excellent case study for business students how to fail something that was successful.

xj6response 11-27-2017 12:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zeljkok (Post 820202)
.... Ultimately this would be excellent case study for business students how to fail something that was successful....

that sums it up very well. It seems odd the owners of CT would not grasp that traffic is going away from CT, not towards it. I'm not sure how they'll generate revenue if traffic keeps falling and nobody sees, or clicks on, the ads that are so annoying to so many.

5thhorseman 11-27-2017 01:11 AM

How do you guys know that the traffic is falling? All you can measure is posts and visits. Those could be dwarfed by the number of page hits from people looking up route info from old TRs.

zeljkok 11-27-2017 01:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 5thhorseman (Post 820225)
How do you guys know that the traffic is falling? All you can measure is posts and visits. Those could be dwarfed by the number of page hits from people looking up route info from old TRs.

True. Traffic still could be holding because CT has such rich database, but you can measure new contributions and general sentiment and fact is -- it is fraction of what it used to be. This is indication of overall direction which eventually drags out "shadow users" as well.

StevenSong 11-27-2017 01:29 AM

Another thing is that you have to keep up with the technology. How many of us are on phone and how many are on computer is worth an investigation, especially in the younger generation... That's one reason why I'm starting Instagram, is to reach out to more people.

ClubTread is literally impossible to use on a phone...



I honestly don't know what can be done to save forums like this one. A major shift in information sharing system (FB, IG, etc) will probably mean some old ways are doomed to fail... Maybe it's inevitable. Or maybe we can learn something from Washington state. NWHikers.net, WTA, peakbagger.com are all running pretty well but they do have a much larger user base with hundreds of "serious peakbaggers" eager to contribute... But one thing is always true. In the nowadays world if you don't constantly improve then you are left behind.

zeljkok 11-27-2017 01:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by StevenSong (Post 820241)
But one thing is always true. In the nowadays world if you don't constantly improve then you are left behind.

Bingo

russellcoffin 11-27-2017 01:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by StevenSong (Post 820241)
Another thing is that you have to keep up with the technology. How many of us are on phone and how many are on computer is worth an investigation, especially in the younger generation... That's one reason why I'm starting Instagram, is to reach out to more people.

ClubTread is literally impossible to use on a phone...



I honestly don't know what can be done to save forums like this one. A major shift in information sharing system (FB, IG, etc) will probably mean some old ways are doomed to fail... Maybe it's inevitable. Or maybe we can learn something from Washington state. NWHikers.net, WTA, peakbagger.com are all running pretty well but they do have a much larger user base with hundreds of "serious peakbaggers" eager to contribute... But one thing is always true. In the nowadays world if you don't constantly improve then you are left behind.

I very much agree. I think its its super important having these discussion forums as Instagram is a fun but not useful source for sharing detailed information on trips. With that being said, It takes me about an hour to write a half-assed TR and that's mostly because of how difficult the interface is. I now only use my laptop it seems like for writing these trip reports or google earth haha. Also unfortunately, most of my generation cares about getting the perfect photo at Joffre lakes or Tunnel Bluffs so a future in peak baggers is pretty slim. But I guess that's a different situation...

StevenSong 11-27-2017 02:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by russellcoffin (Post 820257)
I very much agree. I think its its super important having these discussion forums as Instagram is a fun but not useful source for sharing detailed information on trips. With that being said, It takes me about an hour to write a half-assed TR and that's mostly because of how difficult the interface is. I now only use my laptop it seems like for writing these trip reports or google earth haha. Also unfortunately, most of my generation cares about getting the perfect photo at Joffre lakes or Tunnel Bluffs so a future in peak baggers is pretty slim. But I guess that's a different situation...

Instagram is for spreading out photos and reaching out to more people. Fun indeed. But terrible at beta sharing. For the kind of beta I need it offers literally ZERO. Instead it literally took me a visual tour to Europe Alps, Nepal and Pakistan everyday.. I felt like I've already climbed the Matterhorn even though I still don't even know where exactly it is.... It probably wouldn't do me a favour on finding trip partners neither but it IS a good tool for self promotion and building one's own status and brand.

Forums like this one cannot be substituted (that's why I'm still checking it...)..

I do notice a decline in the arising of "new peak-baggers" in the last couple years. And I also notice a lot of "old peak-baggers" are quitting or transitioning into other forms of activities... I really don't know why to be honest... Maybe the few folks like me and Vern has set the standard too high..

zeljkok 11-27-2017 02:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by StevenSong (Post 820265)
I really don't know why to be honest... Maybe the few folks like me and Vern has set the standard too high..

No. It has nothing to do with you, or Vern or any other individual. It is rather general sentiment about the site direction. You don't go out to the mountains with someone if you don't enjoy his/her company, right? Same here. People dislike adds, interface, not being mobile friendly (very important!) ... but more than anything lack of care. And then it snowballs. One person leaves, and this drags 10 other people along. Just look at Rockies forum, that was once bursting with all kinds of reports and info; now if I wouldn't post and maybe PhilR on occasion, it would sit completely dead

What hold site is enormous heritage built over the years. But with this direction it will dry out. I've seen many examples like that in Internet industry over the years.

StevenSong 11-27-2017 02:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zeljkok (Post 820273)
No. It has nothing to do with you, or Vern or any other individual. It is rather general sentiment about the site direction. You don't go out to the mountains with someone if you don't enjoy his/her company, right? Same here. People dislike adds, interface, not being mobile friendly (very important!) ... but more than anything lack of care. And then it snowballs. One person leaves, and this drags 10 other people along. Just look at Rockies forum, that was once bursting with all kinds of reports and info; now if I wouldn't post and maybe PhilR on occasion, it would sit completely dead

What hold site is enormous heritage built over the years. But with this direction it will dry out. I've seen many examples like that in Internet industry over the years.

Yeah. I do think bloggers and particularly Vern and I have effect though. On one hand we inspired more people to get out but on the other hand it left little room worth documenting (in details) for peaks that either him or I have already done (and that together is over 1000 peaks).. Saying this because I have feedback from other friends. The ethic of blogging the backcountry has its double sides but whatever. On this nowadays world there is just too much to worry about. I just try to look things in a positive way otherwise you just aren't gonna be happy..

Hopefully ClubTread can find its path soon...

zeljkok 11-27-2017 03:34 AM

Nothing else really needs to be said. Dear VSAdmins, lobo is one of best contributors this site ever had. When you want your business to be successful you take these things super seriously. You scratch and claw to keep them

Or Vern, one of best mountaineers Canada has, with now legendary personal site. I practically begged him to stay on CT, no success. List goes on.

Site will fail and shut down I can guarantee it. Not today or tomorrow but with current way you are managing it is inevitable. It is a damn shame

VSadmin 11-27-2017 02:50 PM

With regards to the site not being mobile friendly, there are 3 different mobile specific ways to use the site. Which ones aren't friendly? Or are you using the desktop site on mobile?

Kyle

russellcoffin 11-27-2017 09:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VSadmin (Post 820329)
With regards to the site not being mobile friendly, there are 3 different mobile specific ways to use the site. Which ones aren't friendly? Or are you using the desktop site on mobile?

Kyle

It is ridiculously terrible to write trip reports on the supposedly "mobile enhanced view". Pretty much only doable thing is viewing reports or replying to comments. It seems like the site doesn't care about new information being uploaded, just people clicking on old TRs and generating money. If you look at other sites, they are adapting as technology advances. It could definitely use a face lift of its own. Kyle. Maybe try making your own trip report on your phone to see.

StevenSong 11-27-2017 09:57 PM

Well, if generating revenue is the purpose of building this site then no doubt it's failing. The purpose is wrong at the start.

I'm not speaking to you Kyle as I don't know you in person, but if you want to make money out of us dirtbag climbers then good luck.. We HATE this form of commercialization by heart. And this is not just about the internet ads. Just go ask any climber in western Canada how much they hate the built of Glacier Skywalk in Jasper.. This is by no mean a business and if you treat it as a business then you'll fail (or at least you won't be as competitive as others will)..



Those successful on building climbing sites all have a strong passion.

The passion about outdoors is why they build and maintain a site. Not making revenue. We even pay our own $$ to let it run. Why? For the sole reason of our own passion and interest... Of course if the site is good enough then sponsorship might come but that's definitely not the primary purpose, not even close... And we will pick sponsors too. Sorts that have nothing to do with climbing is definitely not a consideration. And if you choose this path then the hardcores will leave. I'm hearing the similar story from a friend about that American site SummitPost. Now a lot of the contributors have left because of ads.

StevenSong 11-27-2017 10:10 PM

ClubTread used to be a forum that targets on this small group of dirtbag climbers, scramblers and peakbaggers. This is a group of people that unless you are part of them, you'll feel very difficult to understand some of our logics and thoughts.
If you don't listen, then we'll eventually all leave. It hurts but it's true.

Of course you can shift the target into the mainstream outdoor people like the Joffre Group crowds, but then you're facing the competition with Facebook and Instagram. Then Good luck again...

Candy Sack 11-27-2017 11:32 PM

A couple comments that take issue with your point of view, Steven:

1) After viewing both your site and Vern's site, I see they both contain ads. In Vern's case, some don't have anything to do with climbing. I have no idea how or why your sites have ads, but it seems to me you can't speak for what climbers will tolerate in terms of ads and revenue generation when your very own site contains links. Mind you, I did not notice any of the offensive vigilinks.

2) In my view, CT never solely targeted dirtbag climbers, scramblers, and peakbaggers, as you suggest. Since I joined, the times when CT was most lively were when all sorts of TR's were being posted, and there was also discussion about various topics and issues. You can tell by the categories that CT was never a site for climbers only. Besides, everyone knows that the real hardcore climbers- those pushing the bounds of the sport and putting up new routes etc...- have never been an integral part of CT. Why? Because we're not a climbing site.

StevenSong 11-28-2017 12:03 AM

Well... What I pointed out are my thoughts at why CT is dying. The fact is is drying out and you can't deny that. There gotta be some reasons. Maybe these are not the reasons, maybe these are...

Regarding my own site there are things I cannot control. First I'm not a web person so I have rely on an easy platform. Not it has grown bigger that I'm pretty much stuck in the wordpress. If they chose to put ads in then I can't do much. I won't blame them cuz for what? There's no way I can have a full control unless I spend hundreds of hours to learn html and migrate to a real site of mine.. Thank you for pointing it out as I don't even know it has ads now... Ever since I got this computer I had installed an ad blocker. I don't see Vigilinks on ClubTread neither probably because of that blocker thing.

zeljkok 11-28-2017 01:16 AM

I'll agree with Candy in respect that CT was never targeting single interest group. That was the beauty of it! You'd come Monday to office & there would be Sky Pilot / pink slab adventure, RamblingBull, Alastair and jeffhan would report from Statlu peakbagging / Vienesse weekend but there would also be Seymour Pump and flowingbrook 100th version of Elk/Thurston. All good, enjoyable and appreciated by everyone.

I mentioned Vern & how much CT lost because of him, but there are tons of similar examples. How about mountainnerd? Extremely knowledgeable --don't think anyone knows Rockies better than him, publisher of outdoor guidebook. Name Eric Coulthard is well known in outdoor community. Now he wouldn't even respond to direct question I asked in one of his old trip reports. Or flip to the coast. Simon! I firmly believe he could have monetized his totally out of beaten path explorations of Coast Mountains, Duffey in particular. Gone. Or John & Katie. Did you notice how he suddenly disappeared? And he was one of most prolific contributors; I don't believe there was single user here that would not have smile on his/hers face watching photos of Katie and John' witty comments. List goes on.

CT was community, but ownership never bothered to understand that because to do so you have to be part of that same community. This is why it is failing, not because of adds or viglinks or clunky interface or being mobile dumb. I repeat again: Dayle tried. I also know what she was working in the background, it was going to be awesome! Did you notice how even aforementioned simonc re-appeared briefly at that time? And she vanished, probably because she was told it was not in business interest to evolve CT and things are worse than ever.

TheShadow 11-28-2017 02:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Candy Sack (Post 819546)
I've been hanging around since 2009, back when heated arguments took place and new TR's came out daily. Those were better times.

That's odd...you didn't like my Canuck commentaries. "Better times"?

Seriously though...I don't come around nearly as often as I used to (you can jump to your own conclusions as to why) but when I do I find the whole site to be cold, uninviting and unfamiliar.
I also use AdBlock, so I don't see any of the grief that others are experiencing....but that's the whole idea behind AdBlock, isn't it? Generally though, the more ads I see, the less I use a site...period.

Given the "need" for ads and the multitude of FREE forums available, I don't understand why this one is failing while another freebie InVision forum that I've been a member of since 2001, is still alive and kicking. Sure, it has ads, but with the AdBlock...I don't see them either!

Fact is, people will gravitate to whatever they feel comfortable with, and they HATE change.
I can post a TR or Ride report on Facebook in under 20 minutes with pics...

VSadmin 11-28-2017 12:00 PM

Hi,

Getting back to the difficulties writing reports, do you have any suggestions that could improve the experience?

Fergus

Candy Sack 11-28-2017 04:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheShadow (Post 820457)
That's odd...you didn't like my Canuck commentaries. "Better times"?

Haha you're right I didn't. But you have to admit CT was much livelier and active back then. And yes, better times.

So now we're talking to Fergus... what happened to Kyle? I can't tell who's who cause they all wear the same boots.... Anyway, one thing that's been mentioned numerous times is having a built in photo re-sizer, like in the olden days.

TheShadow 11-28-2017 08:51 PM

Fear not...the Playoff reporting will continue this year.

I doubt that we'll be hearing from any Canuck fans though....

VSadmin 11-29-2017 10:53 AM

We use the same account, if you would like to speak to someone specific I can tag them in. Regarding the image resizer, I have found a plugin that might work. Is this something there is support from in the community?

Fergus

martin 11-29-2017 01:50 PM

Having a built-in image resizer would be useful. It's an extra step to have to re-size images on the computer before uploading, so this would make it simpler.

Regarding all the other stuff, I don't see many ads due to the ad blocker on the PC. I don't like the Vigilinks thing, any links in your reports should be your own. I don't use CT on the phone much, since I like to have a topo map or Google Earth open when I'm reading trip reports, it makes it easier to follow along. I can't imagine writing a trip report on a phone, that would be like scrubbing the driveway with a toothbrush! So making it easier to use on the phone isn't too much of an issue for me.

Dru 11-29-2017 02:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zeljkok (Post 820441)
. Simon! I firmly believe he could have monetized his totally out of beaten path explorations of Coast Mountains,

I felt like this was quote worthy because it is possibly the most ridiculous thing that anyone has ever posted on Club tread. Sasquatch and gold panning threads included.

guntis 11-29-2017 05:26 PM

I had some catching up to do. I've tried to quickly go through the pages of comments, but one thing jumped out at me.

The original site (from what I think I know) was a "lower budget" but high quality site, maintained lovingly and personally by involved hikers. It wasn't fancy, but it didn't need to be. It had limitations, but appealed to us dirtbag outdoors people.

With a commercial site, there's opportunity to expand what a site can do. It comes with more advertising and promotional stuff. That's to be expected. You have to fund it somehow. But, we would also expect a slicker interface, and harnessing the power of web technology to really set it apart.

My favourite example is Walkhighlands. They've found a way to monetize through relevant businesses (accommodations, guiding, etc). It's useful, effective, and most of all, not intrusive.

zeljkok 11-29-2017 08:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dru (Post 820586)
Quote:

Originally Posted by zeljkok (Post 820441)
. Simon! I firmly believe he could have monetized his totally out of beaten path explorations of Coast Mountains,

I felt like this was quote worthy because it is possibly the most ridiculous thing that anyone has ever posted on Club tread. Sasquatch and gold panning threads included.

.


Everyone is entitled to their opinion. I also find your posts arrogant, self righteous and often just plain wrong. I know for a fact you have chased users out of CT with your style. You have nothing nice to say to anyone, ever -- no encouragements, thumbs up. Just criticism, sarcasm and "I am above all" attitude. It is quite sad, mod who should be ambassador of the forum and work to make users feel good and contribute.

I stand by what I said re simonc. It was meant as testimony to his outdoor knowledge, ability and willingness to share with community. Too bad you were not able to understand this

solo75 11-29-2017 08:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VSadmin (Post 819474)
From what I understand things were on the up particularly when Dayle stepped in to help. So give me the list. What is actually wrong here what I can fix I will
Kyle

Dayle mentioned months ago that she communicated with management about having the login page encrypted for security; just like the Banks do. Are you considering that?

Redbeard 11-29-2017 08:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dru (Post 820586)
I felt like this was quote worthy because it is possibly the most ridiculous thing that anyone has ever posted on Club tread. Sasquatch and gold panning threads included.

Seriously, Dru? This is an idiotic thing to say. Simon definitely could have monetized all of the detailed information he put up on CT by publishing a book as others have done. Matt Gunn is one such example (not that there's anything wrong with this, of course! I own a copy of Scrambles in SW BC). He may not have gotten rich, but rather than post it all for free on the internet, he could have at least received some financial reward for his efforts.

Once again you continue to demonstrate the arrogant and dismissive attitude that I've found very frustrating over the years. Communicate politely and effectively or shut up.

zeljkok 11-29-2017 10:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Redbeard (Post 820642)
Quote:

Originally Posted by Dru (Post 820586)
I felt like this was quote worthy because it is possibly the most ridiculous thing that anyone has ever posted on Club tread. Sasquatch and gold panning threads included.

Seriously, Dru? This is an idiotic thing to say. Simon definitely could have monetized all of the detailed information he put up on CT by publishing a book as others have done. Matt Gunn is one such example (not that there's anything wrong with this, of course! I own a copy of Scrambles in SW BC). He may not have gotten rich, but rather than post it all for free on the internet, he could have at least received some financial reward for his efforts.

Once again you continue to demonstrate the arrogant and dismissive attitude that I've found very frustrating over the years. Communicate politely and effectively or shut up.

Redbeard, exactly. And matosan, to who we all owe for his fantastic work, didn't even have smartphone app option at that time

I think I mentioned this idea to Simon once and he was not closed to the idea. I don't know where he is now, but I hope he considers it

But it is hard to see this if you can't acknowledge anything you don't like. My hope is that VSAdmins will realize Dru is one of big problems of this site few of us are trying to save

Redbeard 11-30-2017 02:12 PM

1 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by VSadmin (Post 820329)
With regards to the site not being mobile friendly, there are 3 different mobile specific ways to use the site. Which ones aren't friendly? Or are you using the desktop site on mobile?

Kyle

Hey Kyle or Fergus or whoever is watching this thread,

I've attached a screenshot I took last night while viewing the forum on my phone. You can see one of the obtrusive ads that are super annoying because they move with the page as you scroll rather than being a fixed image (I have an ad blocker on my PC so I don't see them unless I'm on my phone). Also, the ad is in French (???) and emojis show as broken images. These are theoretically two easy things to fix (broken image links and ads in the wrong language) and one difficult thing to fix (the concept of intrusive ads for members).

Patrick

tinman610 12-02-2017 01:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zeljkok (Post 820682)
Redbeard, exactly. And matosan, to who we all owe for his fantastic work, didn't even have smartphone app option at that time

I think I mentioned this idea to Simon once and he was not closed to the idea. I don't know where he is now, but I hope he considers it

But it is hard to see this if you can't acknowledge anything you don't like. My hope is that VSAdmins will realize Dru is one of big problems of this site few of us are trying to save

I was one of the initiators for the push towards having moderators on this site after it was sold. At the time there was a lot of negative stuff being posted that was non hiking related and there were a lot of personal attacks going on. It was driving good people away from the site. The site owners were not monitoring the site and there was a need for forum moderators. An open vote was held and the highest vote getter was Dru. You get what you voted for. Sometimes it's hard to fathom why so many people vote the way that they do, but they do.


Moderators are supposed to keep members on topic, keep people following the forum rules. Contribute in a positive fashion. That is not happening. If I had known that the forum moderator positions were going to be given out based on a popularity vote I never would have pushed for forum moderators. They should have been assigned by the site owners and carefully selected based on the sites policies and values.


Perhaps the "lifetime" forum banner should be rethought.

VSadmin 12-04-2017 11:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Redbeard (Post 820794)
Hey Kyle or Fergus or whoever is watching this thread,

I've attached a screenshot I took last night while viewing the forum on my phone. You can see one of the obtrusive ads that are super annoying because they move with the page as you scroll rather than being a fixed image (I have an ad blocker on my PC so I don't see them unless I'm on my phone). Also, the ad is in French (???) and emojis show as broken images. These are theoretically two easy things to fix (broken image links and ads in the wrong language) and one difficult thing to fix (the concept of intrusive ads for members).

Patrick

The ad is supposed to scroll at browser bottom. It serves based on your search history like an other google/adsense ad so it follows anything you look up. Though with Walmart specifically I've noticed that Walmart CA likes to default to French regardless. I'll send it to be checked. Regarding emojis, mobile is supposed to pull based on emoji's loaded on your phone so it sometimes conflicts with custom on site, though that doesn't appear to be the case here. I'll investigate.

Kyle

VSadmin 12-05-2017 10:49 AM

Hello,

we're in the process of having viglink removed. Please stay tuned for updates.

Lee

zeljkok 12-05-2017 02:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VSadmin (Post 821626)
Hello,

we're in the process of having viglink removed. Please stay tuned for updates.

Lee

You are doing the right thing! We understand the business reality, but maybe we can think together of other, less obtrusive ways.

I invite the community (us, users) now to show appreciation of this good faith move and respond proportionally. Let's work together and try to restore CT to its old glory by being active, sharing and participating. No post is too small -- even 1 sentence update in Conditions thread i.e. "I did Grouse Grind this evening, 1:15 slushy snow on top" will be read and appreciated.

Fantastic news, and thanks you very much for listening!

5thhorseman 12-05-2017 02:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zeljkok (Post 821634)
You are doing the right thing! We understand the business reality, but maybe we can think together of other, less obtrusive ways.

I invite the community (us, users) now to show appreciation of this good faith move and respond proportionally. Let's work together and try to restore CT to its old glory by being active, sharing and participating. No post is too small -- even 1 sentence update in Conditions thread i.e. "I did Grouse Grind this evening, 1:15 slushy snow on top" will be read and appreciated.

Fantastic news, and thanks you very much for listening!

I like this!

Redbeard 12-05-2017 03:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VSadmin (Post 821626)
Hello,

we're in the process of having viglink removed. Please stay tuned for updates.

Lee

Thank-you for listening to the community!

SarcasticMarmot 12-05-2017 06:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VSadmin (Post 821626)
Hello,

we're in the process of having viglink removed. Please stay tuned for updates.

Lee

Well shoot... I guess I need to stop procrastinating on my trip reports now.

TheShadow 12-06-2017 07:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zeljkok (Post 821634)
No post is too small -- even 1 sentence update in Conditions thread i.e. "I did Grouse Grind this evening, 1:15 slushy snow on top" will be read and appreciated.


Strange....I tried this and got my TR deleted and a nasty PM.

Apparently, it was read, but not appreciated.

Blue_bird 02-11-2018 06:29 PM

I just joined the site as I really appreciate the info, but I don't post any of the info I gather.

I never got into forums, and never have found the format particularly aesthetic. I realize that's not a content issue, but it just doesn't appeal to me to spend to much time here. Instead I've posted my trips on places like the Outbound, and The Outdoor Project. The content is much less reliable, the focus is millennial vanity, but the sites just look nicer and more pleasant to navigate.


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