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post #16 of (permalink) Old 08-28-2012, 07:33 PM
Dru
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I would actually prefer to get rid of the regionalized forums altogether. Put all the trip reports in one forum called Trip Reports. End of story. It works fine for Supertopo.
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post #17 of (permalink) Old 08-28-2012, 07:57 PM
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I think that most Albertans on this forum will support Rachel's points. I don't think any redesign is needed. Simple renaming "Alberta" into "Rockies" will do the job.
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post #18 of (permalink) Old 08-28-2012, 08:03 PM
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We shall never give up our BC Rockies. We shall fight on the beaches, we shall fight in the fields and in the streets, we shall fight in the hills, we will never surrender.
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post #19 of (permalink) Old 08-28-2012, 08:20 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
quote:Originally posted by Dru

(1)I don't think "uniting the Rockies" is a good idea. The Rockies are not united anymore than the Cascades are united.
(2)Also there are something like 10 years of trip reports in different forums at the moment. Any change in the geographic division of the forums means some poor schnook like Jim has to go and manually refile all those old reports. Changing any legacy system gets harder the older it is and this one is no exception.
(3)Finally Google doesn't care which forum your trip report is in. It will find a 2-year old TR for Lake O'hara just as easily in the BC forum as in the AB forum. Therefore the only argument in support of the one-Rockies forum is the vanity one: "more of the people who matter will read my TR if it's in the forum they look at all the time."
Strip away that vanity and focus on writing a quality TR that people will read no matter where it is.
1. I don't claim to know much about how the Cascades are hiked or reported, but the Rockies are pretty much one area on this forum. The people who hike the Rockies reasonably regularly hike both the BC and Alberta sides. The TRs posted for the BC Rockies are usually posted by the same people from the same areas as those posting about the Alberta Rockies. The Mainland BC folk (ie. Vancouver area plus a few scattered around) don't usually use the BC Rockies, except on multi-day trips which usually also include part of the Alberta Rockies.
One can certainly argue about divisions at all, but as long as there are multiple TR forums (which I favour, but that's another debate), the usage would suggest that the BC Rockies go with the Alberta Rockies much more than they go with the rest of Mainland BC.

2. There would be no need to refile old TRs. TRs for the BC Rockies are already scattered across two forums. I suspect everyone in favour of the change would have no problem if it was simple a going-forth measure with no back-sorting done. We could have all future Rockies TRs where they should be, and some old ones in the 'wrong' forum instead of all future AND all past TRs scattered between two.
I definitely think concerns about the old TRs shouldn't prohibit a decision for the future.

3. Yes, if you search them, it will find them no matter where they are. Another good reason to not worry too much about old TRs. But many who browse the forum browse individual areas, and like seeing an area together.
Personally, I read via Active Topics most of the time, so I see all the new stuff, but I don't click on West Coast trips very often. Even a really really great trip there is an area I don't know very well and am probably not going to plan on doing myself any time soon, and that lowers my interest. I suspect I'm not completely alone in that, and that is part of the reason Vancouver-area CTers don't tend to comment as much on Iceline TRs posted in the Mainland BC forum, no matter how well written.
Even if it were 'vanity'.. Many users get to know other users in their general area, and tend to be more interested in each other's reports than people a province away who don't know the area or the poster. Is that really a problem?
And again, does it hurt the Vancouverites at all? Even if we Albertans are nothing but a vain clique, does that matter to those who don't visit and don't comment?
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post #20 of (permalink) Old 08-28-2012, 08:21 PM Thread Starter
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quote:Originally posted by another jeff

We shall never give up our BC Rockies. We shall fight on the beaches, we shall fight in the fields and in the streets, we shall fight in the hills, we will never surrender.
That works. You keep fighting on the beaches, fields, streets and hills.
We'll wave down from the Rockies.
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post #21 of (permalink) Old 08-28-2012, 08:34 PM
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I'd like to also add that this decision has already been made since most Albertans already use the Alberta forum as a united Rockies forum. The only thing left to do is to change the name of the forum to avoid confusion.
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post #22 of (permalink) Old 08-28-2012, 08:59 PM
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Whatever ends up getting done (or not done), the worst thing is this provincial based division that only leads to unnecessary bickering. Rockies, Cascades, Monashees etc don't belong to anyone, they are for all of us to enjoy (and be nice to each other in the process)

I like David and Karen Mountain Chain based approach. It still keeps it small enough, with perhaps park-based secondary key. (I guess Karen won't really care as long as there are nice photos to be taken )
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post #23 of (permalink) Old 08-28-2012, 10:23 PM
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Big thumb for this idea.

I treat Alberta forum as Rocky Mountains forum though. When I threw Paget Peak (in Yoho) into BC forum in July, it only got 60-70 clicks before being burried into a sea of Coast Mountain threads.

Okay, so if I put my trip report of Mount Carnarvon into BC forum, how many of you will know this mountain? and how many of you will care about this peak? It's a major scramble in Yoho and I think everyone who has Alan Kane Scramble Book knows this peak. I don't think the Vancouverians will buy this book.

Anyway I'll write every future trips that's in the Rockies into Alberta forum. I think ALberta scramblers don't check BC forum regularly as those mountains are so far away.
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post #24 of (permalink) Old 08-28-2012, 11:29 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
quote:Originally posted by zeljkok

Whatever ends up getting done (or not done), the worst thing is this provincial based division that only leads to unnecessary bickering. Rockies, Cascades, Monashees etc don't belong to anyone, they are for all of us to enjoy (and be nice to each other in the process)
I've always thought that in good fun. I've never seen anyone talking about 'my mountains' or such defensively...
I think you can safely read any such statements and imagine a joking grin.
I mean, really, they ALL belong to me.
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post #25 of (permalink) Old 08-28-2012, 11:47 PM
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But what about the Rockies that extend into MontanAmerica? Do I get left out of this new subforum?

I agree with Dru on the whole matter.
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post #26 of (permalink) Old 08-29-2012, 12:21 AM
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Quote:
quote:Originally posted by Farmer

But what about the Rockies that extend into MontanAmerica? Do I get left out of this new subforum?
Excellent point. Rockies are Rockies; man made fences (Montana / Colorado / BC / Alberta) only cause problems. This is why I like division on Mountain Chain or Park level. So if you hike Logan Pass you post in "Rockies" forum, subdivision "Glacier/Montana". Like this, even if Alberta becomes Rockies (which it won't because it was not presented the proper way and too many people are now pissed off) -- BC folks out of spite won't post there when they go to O'Hara or Takkakaw or whatever, same as now Albertans don't post in B.C forum when they hike Iceline.

It is also not enough to simply rename Alberta Rockies. What about Drumheller or Elk Island or ... . This needs more careful thought than just rush and wave the flag "Unite the Rockies". Winter is coming and there will be less trips. Together we should be able to come with model that is optimal for everyone, all in good spirit. I also love Rockies, possibly more than anyone on this board, but personal sentiments should be left aside in stuff like this.
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post #27 of (permalink) Old 08-29-2012, 09:00 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
quote:Originally posted by zeljkok

Quote:
quote:Originally posted by Farmer

But what about the Rockies that extend into MontanAmerica? Do I get left out of this new subforum?
Excellent point. Rockies are Rockies; man made fences (Montana / Colorado / BC / Alberta) only cause problems. This is why I like division on Mountain Chain or Park level. So if you hike Logan Pass you post in "Rockies" forum, subdivision "Glacier/Montana". Like this, even if Alberta becomes Rockies (which it won't because it was not presented the proper way and too many people are now pissed off) -- BC folks out of spite won't post there when they go to O'Hara or Takkakaw or whatever, same as now Albertans don't post in B.C forum when they hike Iceline.
It is also not enough to simply rename Alberta Rockies. What about Drumheller or Elk Island or ... . This needs more careful thought than just rush and wave the flag "Unite the Rockies". Winter is coming and there will be less trips. Together we should be able to come with model that is optimal for everyone, all in good spirit. I also love Rockies, possibly more than anyone on this board, but personal sentiments should be left aside in stuff like this.
Logically, Glacier National Park would go with the Rockies, but if it were simply an Alberta/Canadian Rockies forum, it really wouldn't be a big downside. The reason I'm bringing it up and pressing hard is that it comes up *constantly*. It's been raised over and over again this summer, derailing multiple TRs. No-one posts about Glacier National Park regularly, so it's really not much of an issue. The 'TR - other areas' forum is also not so highly populated that people don't lose TS quickly in there.
Yes, there are piles of other questions that could be asked about how other parts of the forum could more logically be divided. But until this is raised, no-one seems to have much of a problem with them. The BC Rockies question is a constant one, and one that could quickly and easily be settled by renaming the Alberta forum into "Alberta/Canadian Rockies".
The rest of Alberta isn't hiked much, and thus isn't a big concern, but also doesn't need its own area. Hence the Alberta/Rockies, rather than just renaming to Rockies.
It really doesn't need more careful thought. There has been plenty of thought. The last time I created a thread, it was more neutral with a 'can we reconsider how the forums are arranged?', and it didn't get anywhere, because it was bogged down with questions as to what to do about BC.
Thus, my suggestion here to let all that happen in a separate debate (with largely different players having a stake), and my push to have it no longer brought up and never getting anywhere. We can make the Rockies one forum which works much more logically for those who use that forum without having to reorganize everything else at the same time.


Okay, seriously, what is with the emotional hangup? Current Albertan posters don't not use the BC forum because of spite or because we have some sort of bias against the province. We don't use it because it seems more logical to post BC Rockies with the rest of the Rockies, or because we have noticed that it is quickly buried in the BC forum and not seen by the others most likely to be interested, or because the trip started in Alberta (even if just by vehicle) or the number of other reasons you see listed in this thread and the linked TRs.
None of us have a problem with BC. It just doesn't seem like the best place to put BC Rockies reports.
If you or other British Columbians really wouldn't post Yoho TRs in a new Alberta/Rockies forum out of spite, that would be ridiculously childish. I don't believe that is remotely likely though, as you're the only one I've seen personally offended by the conversation, and I don't understand why. You're the only one who seems to see genuine bickering or possessiveness or any of that, and I again suggest you turn on your tongue-in-cheek sensor.
This isn't a personal sentiment. This is a suggestion for a more logical reorganisation of one small area that would be a quick-fix to adjust to how the majority of the users use it and prefer it.
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post #28 of (permalink) Old 08-29-2012, 09:19 AM Thread Starter
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So far in this thread:

In favour of a single Rockies forum:
-5 regular Rockies users
-2 occasional Rockies users living elsewhere

Opposed to a single Rockies forum:
-1 sometimes Rockies user
-1 tongue-in-cheek "don't take our Rockies!' comment
-0 regular Rockies users
-0 people with a genuine concern about that method of organisation

Opposed to any forum divisions (which is not really relevant to a discussion of how to arrange the forums as long as we have multiple):
-2 non-Rockies users


As I suggested in the beginning, people who use the Rockies are generally in favour of a single forum. A number of posters treat the Alberta forum as a Rockies forum already, and those who do post BC Rockies TRs in BC do so because that is how the forum says it should be organized - they have never spoken against a Rockies forum.

Even if 'people who regularly hike the Rockies, and post/read/comment on Rockies TRs' are a small subset of this forum, it seems easy enough to organize that smaller subset forum in a manner logical to those who use it.
Even those who don't use it haven't expressed any concerns with that method of organisation except for one person who fears other British Columbians will develop large amounts of spite for it (unsubstantiated by any other BC folks).
The disagreement that does appear are questions about the organisation of other areas or the forums in general
It would be very nice if we could deal with this question on its own (good bit of support, no serious opposition), instead of getting bogged down again into big questions as to how the whole forum should be organized.
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post #29 of (permalink) Old 08-29-2012, 10:42 AM
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Quote:
quote:Originally posted by Rachelo
Logically, Glacier National Park would go with the Rockies, but if it were simply an Alberta/Canadian Rockies forum, it really wouldn't be a big downside.
If you are talking Canada's Glacier National Park (not the US one), it most definitely would not logically fit with the Rockies - it's in the Selkirks.

It all seems fairly irrelevant to me. If you are interested in the TR why does it matter if it's in one forum or another?

The only method that would make any sense to me would be by mountain range - Rockies, Columbias, Coast. The Cascades would get lumped in with the Coast. The Purcells and Selkirks with the Columbias. You guys are totally welcome to your Crumblie Mountains
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post #30 of (permalink) Old 08-29-2012, 11:31 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
quote:Originally posted by sandy

Quote:
quote:Originally posted by Rachelo
Logically, Glacier National Park would go with the Rockies, but if it were simply an Alberta/Canadian Rockies forum, it really wouldn't be a big downside.
If you are talking Canada's Glacier National Park (not the US one), it most definitely would not logically fit with the Rockies - it's in the Selkirks.
It all seems fairly irrelevant to me. If you are interested in the TR why does it matter if it's in one forum or another?
The only method that would make any sense to me would be by mountain range - Rockies, Columbias, Coast. The Cascades would get lumped in with the Coast. The Purcells and Selkirks with the Columbias. You guys are totally welcome to your Crumblie Mountains
I meant American Glacier National Park which is geologically part of the Canadian Rockies.
Canadian Glacier National Park I would put in a category I'd call 'Interior BC' which would include everything between the Coast/Cascade and the Rocky Mountain Trench.
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