Joffre Lakes has gone F*in INSANE - Page 4 - ClubTread Community

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post #46 of (permalink) Old 09-09-2016, 11:23 PM
High on the Mountain Top
 
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Originally Posted by Dru View Post
This thread has had me ask myself some fundamental questions and answer them.

Q: what do I think is a better thing - more people or less people in the outdoors?
A: I'd be selfish if I said less. I think more people, or a greater percentage of the population, getting outside is a good thing.

Q: but isn't overuse a problem?
A: Yes. Popular areas are getting hammered. We need people to go to more and different places. We also need people to reduce the intensity of their use. Hiking is fine. Littering and used TP prayer-flags and erosion and wildlife getting habituated to humans and then shot aren't.

Q: How can we address this?
A: Education, enforcement and infrastructure. We need to educate more people more effectively about proper backcountry etiquette. We need to give people more options for places to go - either by building more trails and huts and so on or by popularizing existing areas that aren't as popular. We need more infrastructure designed for heavy use - boardwalks not mud holes, tent pads not meadow camping, outhouses not "shit behind a bush" - in both parks and non-park areas. And we need enforcement of rules for people breaking them - littering and feeding animals and parking illegally and driving quads through off-trail meadows and all that. Overused areas may need permit or quota systems enforced the way they are for Lake O'hara, Bowron Lakes chain, and the WCT.

How can we get that? Join mountain clubs and get your voice heard. Write your politicians and letters to the editor. Volunteer to help out building trails and repairing trails and soon. Advocate for more tax dollars to be spent on recreation, but put up your time as well as your money. Be proactive and educate others through not only words but deeds. And videos and instagrams and blogs and tweets and CT posts.

Well said.
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post #47 of (permalink) Old 09-09-2016, 11:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Arnold View Post
I never met anyone who went backcountry camping and upon arrival to the campsite was delighted and overwhelmed by joy seeing dozens of other tents at the site.

You are the first one.

This is the whole point of outdoors: to escape people, city, and other day to day nonsense.
I know what you are saying. The idea is that if we don't tell anyone about the good hiking spots and we don't do anything to develop the trails then we can keep them to a small community and they will always be pristine.

The flipside is that if no one cares about hiking then no one will complain when access is gated off, recreational areas are clearcut and parks are turned into mines.

I firmly believe that the best thing we can do is to have more people exploring the outdoors.
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post #48 of (permalink) Old 09-10-2016, 12:33 AM
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People who go outside are people who care about the outdoors.
People who stay inside are people who don't care about the outdoors.

The only thing I want to see from people who go outside is less motors and more use of human power.
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post #49 of (permalink) Old 09-10-2016, 08:51 PM
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What I do not understand is when people spend 3-5 hours of driving (into the Sea To Sky region for example, from metro Van) to do a 4 hours (or less) hike. I understand the desire to get to these beautiful areas, and it is worth it for those who do it (hopefully), but it really doesn't make sense from an objective point of view. Releasing C02 generally hurts our environment, and hurting it to go enjoy it seems very contradictory. (I know, one person spending extra time driving won't necessarily have a direct / noticeable impact on backcountry hike locations, but everything adds up from a standpoint of looking at the full population of hikers, over time)

I have always put emphasis on minimizing the use of motors on my trips outdoors by keeping the ratio of motorized transportation to human powered transportation down on individual trips, and generally minimizing trips that require a lot of vehicle usage. If you're going to use the time and resources to drive 1.5 hours to Whistler, it would make sense to make the most of that investment by having a big day there.

Last year I did 3 bike and hike trips from home to mountain peaks that required zero motors, and were extremely enjoyable and rewarding (biking works well for getting to trailheads!). The one time this year that I did drive to Squamish, I did an 8 hour bike ride to Elfin Lakes and Black Tusk cell tower.

Staying local is very important for me, and generally seems much more efficient when you look at the masses. Everyone who lives in metro Vancouver is generally within 45 to 60 minutes of driving of the closest mountains / backcountry locations that are equally as spectacular and rewarding as what you would find by driving 3 hours. I have done 90% of my outdoor activities on Burke and Eagle ridges in Coquitlam, where I live. I understand people want to go to places that are more developed, and consistent access to outdoors throughout populated regions is something that needs to be addressed. For me, it just doesn't make sense hearing about people from Coquitlam driving 5 hours to do a 3 hour hike at Joffre lakes when I drive / bike 10 - 30 minutes and have an equally enjoyable (or maybe more enjoyable, because less driving) trip.

I don't want to tell people what to do, just throwing thoughts out there, hope you find a bit of logic in them.!
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post #50 of (permalink) Old 09-10-2016, 11:56 PM
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Originally Posted by another jeff View Post
I think it is unreasonable to expect a provincial parks system to achieve the level of enforcement and regulation of a national park. Limiting overnight campers won't reduce the crowds as the vast majority are daytrippers, nor will any park-based regulation reduce complaints about areas such as Semaphore Lakes.


Not to mention the fact that regulating or restricting daytrippers is unheard of for 99% of the trails of national parks. When it does happen it isn't for something as mitigatable as "not enough parking on a sunny holiday weekend".
Agree that it's not likely we can reach the same level as US National Parks, but we can get somewhere, if we're willing to try.....otherwise we get nothing.

We started this thread talking about day hikers at Joffre Lakes but moved into a discussion about "polluting" the backcountry. I agree that what I have proposed will not help with day hikers but it will help with overnight campers, who probably contribute the lion's share of pollution. If people have to reserve a backcountry campsite, often by lottery, and limit the "users" it is highly unlikely that they will be the type who indiscriminately despoil and pollute the environment.

I agree that we can't solve all the problems in all the areas but we have to start somewhere.
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post #51 of (permalink) Old 09-11-2016, 01:51 AM
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Discussion is good, and all points of view have some level of merit. But in my opinion this is all just an attempt to temporarily cure the symptom. Real underlying cause is exploding population size. You think BC trails are crowded? Try living in India or China or South American slums. All problems this planet has -- from Middle East, to climate change and eventually on much smaller scale to Joffre/Garibaldi trails -- would 'magically' disappear if there wouldn't be so many people.

I read somewhere study that planet will reach level of sustainability in only 50 years (!). Stephen Hawking said that if human race is to survive, it will have to colonize the space. This sounds like out of reality sci-fi, but with the rate we are destroying the environment/resources it might not be.
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post #52 of (permalink) Old 09-11-2016, 02:05 AM
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Originally Posted by zeljkok View Post
Discussion is good, and all points of view have some level of merit. But in my opinion this is all just an attempt to temporarily cure the symptom. Real underlying cause is exploding population size. You think BC trails are crowded? Try living in India or China or South American slums. All problems this planet has -- from Middle East, to climate change and eventually on much smaller scale to Joffre/Garibaldi trails -- would 'magically' disappear if there wouldn't be so many people.

I read somewhere study that planet will reach level of sustainability in only 50 years (!). Stephen Hawking said that if human race is to survive, it will have to colonize the space. This sounds like out of reality sci-fi, but with the rate we are destroying the environment/resources it might not be.
You may find this interesting:
http://singularityhub.com/2010/07/21...hildren-video/

Summary: If we solve the problems of poverty and child healthcare, we can solve unsustainable population growth.

The local context is a little different. If the world stopped growing in population today, we would still see growth in Canada for a long time. With so much land to go around and with our reliance on immigration to create economic growth, we will almost certainly have an increase in population for a long time to come. It's why it's particularly important to establish and protect parks today.
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Last edited by Steventy; 09-11-2016 at 02:08 AM.
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post #53 of (permalink) Old 09-11-2016, 02:26 AM
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steven - I agree with everything you said (specially about "establish and protect parks").
But it is only a part of bigger picture and much larger problem that manifests itself just about everywhere.

All we can do here however is do our part -- discuss & try to spread awareness. And pick up that nylon bag or beer can someone 'forgot' while descending the trail back to trailhead.
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