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post #31 of (permalink) Old 11-12-2015, 02:34 PM
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Originally Posted by nsrescue View Post
snowandice - YIKES! Do people think we publicly humiliate people to get press?? That is terrible!
Yes, you are correct, this is what people think about NSR.

No, this is not what people think about other SAR teams. They appear to be SAR centered (not publicity/funding centered to any visible extend), and when they rescue a person, they rescue his/her dignity as well.
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post #32 of (permalink) Old 11-12-2015, 02:55 PM
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snowandice - Well that makes me sad. Our goal is to rescue people in distress - not rescue and embarrass. The only reason I get up in the middle of the night, and spend days looking for people, or go on all the rescues we do is to help people. Why would we want to embarrass people? That's just mean!
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post #33 of (permalink) Old 11-12-2015, 03:16 PM
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You're preaching to the choir. While there may be some truth to the statement, it fails to communicate its intent. It is completely out of line with common practice, and makes no attempt to rationalize this.
I don't want to misinterpret your last sentence.....could you elaborate ?
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post #34 of (permalink) Old 11-12-2015, 04:29 PM
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JB: I am not a SAR volunteer and I have a huge amount of respect for people like you who dedicate so much time to SAR. Thanks for engaging in this conversation.


Take a quick look at this page:
http://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/not-ver...rong-1.2642150

The headline reads:
"'Not very well prepared': What hikers rescued in B.C. did wrong"

The picture is of the two hikers in question and their full names are included in the story.

Quote from NSR include:
"they'd only done some research on the Internet about the trail,"
"They're not very well prepared,"

I think that story would be embarrassing for any of us.

I realize that you don't write the stories and that you do not intend to embarrass subjects but your team is involved and it's not unreasonable for members of the public to associate your team with these public shamings. The #1 rule when dealing with the media is to assume they will cherry pick quotes so only say something if you are comfortable with it being the one and only thing they put in the story. There are also things that SAR teams can do to inform subjects of their rights and to help them maintain privacy.



More recently, the headline today reads:
"We need to have a talk:" North Shore Rescue scolds hikers"
http://www.vancitybuzz.com/2015/11/n...scolds-hikers/

A headline like this will have two types of impact:
1) It will make it harder for SAR in general to get more funding from the province. When the general population believes that SAR is only there for people who are too foolish/lazy to be prepared, it becomes politically difficult for the government to increase funding levels.

2) It will hopefully reduce call volumes. By informing people of the risks associated with hiking at this time of year, you will hopefully make a few people think more carefully about their decisions and preparedness. Seeing as your funding levels are not being increased, it makes sense to focus on call reduction.


I acknowledge that you are in a tricky spot. How can you reduce short-term call volume while also maximizing the chance of increasing long-term funding? This is further complicated by the fact that the media gives preference to sensational stories and you also rely on some short-term media coverage to increase the profile of the team so that it is easier to raise short-term money from non-government sources.


All of this debate is just a symptom of a more serious underlying problem - the lack of appropriate and consistent (in time and across the province,) funding levels for SAR from the province.


I am personally optimistic that the BCSARA proposal for a new funding model will gain widespread support and will help to address that underlying problem.
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post #35 of (permalink) Old 11-12-2015, 04:42 PM
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Thanks steventy - some very thoughtful comments. I have to say some of the media coverage of that blog post was most unfortunate. An article on Vice stated that "we are tired of rescuing dumb hikers." *sigh* This was not the intent of that post and it is frustrating it was twisted that way. As you have said this kind of narrative does not help us or any other SAR team.

And agreed - hopefully the BCSARA proposal will help advance a more predictable funding model for all SAR teams.
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post #36 of (permalink) Old 11-12-2015, 05:11 PM
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It's very important to keep in mind that the way the media depicts situations is quite often, at best, barely serviceable because they are not writing from the standpoint of understanding what goes on in the back country. At worst, they can be grossly inaccurate and on occasion tremendously sensationalist.

I'm not a SAR member, but some of my closest friends are and what I can summarize is that SAR teams do the best they can with what they are presented with. Sometimes it is unfortunate that you must address the lowest common denominator in an urban population base, because there are so many people adapting to the hiking world on a daily basis. The media is a means to an end on that score because they do play to a large audience but they do not always present information ideally.

As an aside, though I try not to judge folks, I see all kinds of unpreparedness in the mountains and on countless occasions I have quietly assisted people whom I'm convinced might otherwise have killed themselves without my help. I'm sure some people in similar situations might not necessarily agree but I believe in a quiet version of such mentorship simply because I was once inexperienced too.

Also, thanks to all of you people who answer the call of anyone in trouble out there!
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post #37 of (permalink) Old 11-12-2015, 07:03 PM
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My experience with NSR was great on the one hand and on the other horrible. The team went out in miserable conditions on a winter day to help me out. We were prepared (av gear, lots of warm clothes, tent, stove, fuel and food) and we stayed put (warm and dry) once the call came in.

The next day was a little different as the team leader went on a full attack against me in the media (newspaper and radio interviews), including saying that I was hypothermic and that I told him to *ck off, neither of which were true.

Since then, I have read countless stories where NSR was reported to have said mean and even nasty things about people they rescued.

I read about other rescues too in this province that the media have reported, and I do not recall reading the kind of vitriol reported that NSR have stated.

As my mother taught me, if you can't saying something positive, then don't say it.
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post #38 of (permalink) Old 11-12-2015, 07:28 PM
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Hi Jeff,
Ah yes - I remember that call. I will skip the details but you were chatting with the late Tim Jones - who if you have ever met him knows he loved to swear and "shred" people as we used to say. We all experienced it - even his best friends - in fact if Tim wasn't swearing at me then I knew he was upset with me. Tim was also one of the most experienced SAR people in BC - and if I was ever lost - Tim would be the person I wanted looking for me - because he just didn't give a f*# about anything except finding people alive. Because of this he did rub a number of people the wrong way.

If you felt slighted in the media due to this - I apologize on behalf of the team.

In contrast our new Team Leader - Mike - is probably the chillest most even tempered guy I know. He is also extremely skilled and has been doing SAR for almost 20 years despite being under 40.

Tim would go to the ends of the earth to help people and bring them back alive, he would chop down the whole forest if he could and would tell you to get the hell out of his way. He caused lots of bruised egos, but also saved more people than anyone I know. He was one of the most interesting people I've ever met for sure.
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post #39 of (permalink) Old 11-13-2015, 02:00 AM
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Originally Posted by nsrescue View Post
An article on Vice stated that "we are tired of rescuing dumb hikers." *sigh* This was not the intent of that post and it is frustrating...
There are multiple interest groups involved. Some people want to preserve BC as the paradise for next generations, some want to explore it while they can, some believe that hiking is enhancing 'average' health level, some search for tourism [in-]direct economic impact, and mining/forestry/etc wants to get rid of any outdoor communities - who, in their turn, want to get as many city people as possible to mountains, indeed, regardless of their current experience level. Of course, on the first outings these city people are subjects to Dunning-Kruger and overconfidence effects, and that shall be expected. They are normal human beings, own to make numerous mistakes, behave as 'dumb hikers', and have to be taken adequate care of, even if it appears frustrating. You end up acting on the 'wrong' side if you don't acknowledge it.

In my opinion, any talks about SAR funding are appropriate if and only if it has been proven that any (much higher priority) problems with volunteers' number / experience levels / training / organization have been resolved.

to mick range: fully agree and doing the same.
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post #40 of (permalink) Old 11-13-2015, 02:17 AM
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Originally Posted by nsrescue View Post
Hi Jeff,

In contrast our new Team Leader - Mike - is probably the chillest most even tempered guy I know. He is also extremely skilled and has been doing SAR for almost 20 years despite being under 40.

Tim would go to the ends of the earth to help people and bring them back alive, he would chop down the whole forest if he could and would tell you to get the hell out of his way. He caused lots of bruised egos, but also saved more people than anyone I know. He was one of the most interesting people I've ever met for sure.
Thanks for your reply.

I know how hard Tim Jones worked and about his personality. I believe some less than positive aspects of his approach permeated the ranks.

However, in the last two years, I have also noticed a change in NSR, but it is slow coming. That's okay though--they will figure it out and over time, the best of Tim Jones will remain.
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post #41 of (permalink) Old 11-13-2015, 08:58 AM
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I'm not involved with NSR in any way (not even as a rescue subject, not yet anyway) I don't know KC, and I'm not getting involved in this other than to state that I too have noticed a lot of anger from KC to NSR, and I find the tone of posting deliberately provocative.

Are you being the person you wish to be, or the one you don't?
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post #42 of (permalink) Old 11-13-2015, 05:00 PM Thread Starter
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Oh man, I am getting sucked in again - but someone sent me the link, so I guess I am responding.

KC - ok I gotta ask why you have such a hate on for North Shore Rescue? At some point the team or someone on the team did something to you. I don't see how anyone would want to spend as much time and effort as you do being upset at a volunteer rescue team without some other motivations.

I also find it interesting you post everything anonymously and will not tell us who you are. I have a pretty good idea I know who you are and I understand why you might be upset - I believe you were a member who was asked to leave NSR. I am sorry - I am sure that sucked - however that wasn't me or most of the people on the team today. Maybe its time to move on? I find its always better to focus on positive pursuits versus being negative and bullying people. In the end you are the one who ends up miserable. Anyways - this isn't a life advice forum - but I honestly hope you figure it out!

Seriously - if I can help in any way or help you find closure let me know - just email me via the team website.

Cheers,
JB
Sorry Mr Blown, but I have never been a member of NSR, nor have I ever wanted to be. A few of the posters here do know who I am, and they can vouch for that.

But I don't actually think you believe I'm a bitter ex-member of NSR. I think you're probably just trying to attack my character by creating a false narrative that's easier to dismiss. At any rate, you are the second NSR member to resort to ad-hom attacks against me on this forum, which is precisely why I'm not comfortable sharing with you my real name. Attacking and dismissing dissenting opinion isn't constructive, and I'm certainly not the only person that shares my opinion.
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post #43 of (permalink) Old 11-13-2015, 05:17 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by alexcanuck View Post
I'm not involved with NSR in any way (not even as a rescue subject, not yet anyway) I don't know KC, and I'm not getting involved in this other than to state that I too have noticed a lot of anger from KC to NSR, and I find the tone of posting deliberately provocative.

Are you being the person you wish to be, or the one you don't?
Public discourse drives public policy. I see NSR complaining in the media, and I see the masses respond with calls for fees for rescue or a paid rescue service. That's not good. And still task volume increases, so is their approach to public education successful?

NSR has always had an air of "exceptionalism", it's been discussed by other teams and agencies, and it seems to be used to excuse some questionable dalliances with public shaming. There are dozens of SAR teams, as well as other FR agencies, that don't seem to fall into this trap.

But you're right, it is deliberately provocative. I am deliberately provoking this discussion, and that doesn't pose any existential conundrums for me @alexcanuck.
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post #44 of (permalink) Old 11-13-2015, 05:28 PM
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Since that last one was partially directed at me and my first reply in this thread, I'll just put this here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryan.in.yaletown
I don't want to engage the troll too much here...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kid Charlemagne View Post
I intentionally used a sensational/provocative thread title for this subject...
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=troll :

Quote:
Troll: One who posts a deliberately provocative message to a newsgroup or message board with the intention of causing maximum disruption and argument.
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post #45 of (permalink) Old 11-13-2015, 05:39 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Ryan.in.yaletown View Post
Since that last one was partially directed at me and my first reply in this thread, I'll just put this here.





http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=troll :
Sorry Ryan, my intention was not to provoke disruption and argument, it was to provoke discussion, which I have done. In fact, other members seem to share a similar view, and even more have participated in the discussion. If you don't want to participate in the discussion, you don't have to, but please stop your deliberate attempts to focus the conversation on me with accusations of trolling. This is your second attempt to label me as such in this thread. Just because you don't agree with me doesn't mean my view isn't valid, or that this isn't worthy of conversation.
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