Powder Mtn Cats Wants Brew Hut - Page 2 - ClubTread Community

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post #16 of (permalink) Old 04-22-2014, 10:40 PM
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post #17 of (permalink) Old 04-22-2014, 11:06 PM
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Quote:
quote:Originally posted by Dru

Quote:
quote:Originally posted by msulkers

but they also seem to be battling sled use on a regular basis...
In Australia, the cane toad was introduced to try and control another problem, the cane beetle. They'd even successfully controlled the cane beetle when introduced into Puerto Rico. But look what happened.

This is, certes, an analogy. But one that might be worth thinking about.
Ah, that's the beauty of it: in the winter, the gorillas will freeze!


In all seriousness, thanks for the link, comment sent.

-Ryan
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post #18 of (permalink) Old 04-22-2014, 11:20 PM
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PMC, a business with the primary purpose of turning profit, knows quite well that the FMCBC and VOC are run by volunteers and strapped for funds most of the time. The deal might sound good today, but in few years, when the new tenure is granted and established it will be very easy to "forget" about the initial reasons and expand the cat skiing operations.

There might be opposition but it will be PMC, a business with a lot to gain (doubling their operations and profit) and funds to back up their goals versus a diffuse loose coalition of folks left to defend something that most of them enjoy once a year. Guess who is going to prevail?
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post #19 of (permalink) Old 04-22-2014, 11:21 PM
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The proposed cat skiing tenure covers about 60-70% of the ski terrain near the hut, including all the best runs.

Another problem with the application is that the cat ski road will make it very easy for snowmobilers to get into the area by following the groomed cat ski road. That's exactly what happened when they put in their cat ski road to Cypress Peak.
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post #20 of (permalink) Old 04-22-2014, 11:40 PM
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As a major contributor to the construction of Brew Hut III, and the all season non-motorized trail from Roe Creek to Brew Lake I am adamantly opposed to this tenure. The Brew Mountain area has been heavily used by the VOC and other outdoor groups since the construction of the original Brew Hut 30 years ago. Today, it remains a popular area for self-propelled ski touring.

PMC's tenure application covers 60-70% of the high quality ski terrain right around the hut. This terrain is skied frequently throughout the winter by non-motorized groups staying at the Brew Hut. Cat skiing would displace non-motorized users, but to where? All the non-motorized areas, especially the gentle, beginner friendly ones, are being overrun by noisy, smelly snowmobiles. Furthermore, PMC's proposed snowcat road would lead snowmobiles to the doorstep of the Brew Hut where they would be free to ride all over the beginner ski terrain around Brew Lake. History has shown (at Cypress Peak) that once a cat ski road is established the snowmobiles will come into the area. Presently the Brew Hut area has only a small problem with snowmobiles, but this will no doubt become far worse if a snow road is built.

Cat skiing will also bring a lot of garbage into the alpine around brew hut, making the area less pleasant for summer users. PMC has done a poor job of cleaning up bamboo marker poles left in the Cypress Peak area. If granted tenure around Brew Mountain, they will no doubt deploy the same practices and generate the same garbage. Garbage strewn over the alpine will detract from the experience of summer season users of Brew Hut.

Snowmobiling has already expanded significantly in the area. Despite an agreement to keep roe creek as a non-motorized area (as per the sea to sky backcountry recreation forum), a snowmobile trail was recently designated along roe creek FSR. The expansion of snowmobiling has already made getting to the Brew Hut via roe creek less pleasant and more dangerous. It's time to save what's let for non-motorized users.

Please respect the history of non-motorized use in the Brew Mountain area, and the thousands of volunteer hours that have been contributed to building and maintaining the cabins and trails. Please keep Brew Mountain non-motorized and reject PMC's application for tenure expansion.
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post #21 of (permalink) Old 04-22-2014, 11:41 PM
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Quote:
quote:Another problem with the application is that the cat ski road will make it very easy for snowmobilers to get into the area by following the groomed cat ski road. That's exactly what happened when they put in their cat ski road to Cypress Peak.
That's certainly true of any other cat road that's gone in as well, including Sproatt and the Canadian tenure. Build a machine road and the machines will follow...
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post #22 of (permalink) Old 04-22-2014, 11:42 PM
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Quote:
quote:I don't think there is any good trade off here.
I would have to agree with that...
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post #23 of (permalink) Old 04-23-2014, 01:23 AM
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Message sent. I visited the Brew hut once a few years ago and have wanted to go back since, I really hope this does not go through.
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post #24 of (permalink) Old 04-23-2014, 07:55 AM
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What's the logic on how expanding PMC's tenure will help control public snowmobiling? Commercial Rec tenure holders can't, or at least aren't supposed to, restrict public access, although they wish they could.
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post #25 of (permalink) Old 04-23-2014, 04:57 PM
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TheDude, I'm not absolutely certain of the logic, as I wasn't involved in discussions; however, what I do understand is that a tenure for something like snowcat skiing or heliskiing can prevent snowmachine usage because it would harm the business of the tenure holder. For example, a heliskier skiing in low light and injuring herself on a random snowmachine track might sue the heliski company for something it could not control, unless they were able to exclude snowmachines from their tenure.

This would be different if, for example, Canadian (who run snowmachine tours), were to try to prevent recreational snowmachiners from a tenure for the same purpose. That being said, recreational snowmachine use apparently had such a significant effect on Canadian's business, including the access roads they groomed, that they got some leeway this year from RSTBC to charge a fee for recreational use of their groomed access trail.
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post #26 of (permalink) Old 04-23-2014, 07:43 PM
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@scottN I hope you reiterated everything you said in the previous posts in your reply. Well said.
I mentioned in my reply, that I have a big concern for environmental impact. Given the current level of non mechanized traffic over the course of the year, I believe the area would not be able to handle the increased impact on waste management, garbage and water resources in the area. There is no guarantee that PMC may wish to access the Hut and adjoining facilities from time to time and there would be a significant resulting loss in peace and solitude for those who have booked time at the hut.

Picture yourself trying to read a novel in the hut on a low visibility day as PMC's PistenBully charges up the slope with full lights and flashing strobe on. You might as well be vacationing in one of the WB Patrol Offices as the drone of Winch cats is heard driving by.

I have a big concern for Oil and Hydraulic fluid leakage into the snowpack where people are deriving their water from on a very regular basis. Filtration will not deal with this issue.

Footnote: None of us have followed Dru's first instruction (no need to reply here; I guess that's why he has the PHD ) So from a best practices point of view, glean what you will from the feedback in order to compose your succinct reply.
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post #27 of (permalink) Old 04-23-2014, 08:12 PM
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I could go on about this subject having been exposed to Skydrol 500B and Skydrol LD (tributyl phosphate) over 10 years with one direct eye injury by direct contact. This is not nice stuff, trust me. It is the Hydraulic fluid of choice for lift, hoist and fire resistant applications. The following link makes a couple of references to CYVR Airport and other uses and covers off the environmental impact issues of the product and other Hydraulic compounds.
PMC will in no way be able to guarantee that they won't have a Hydraulic leak or failure during the course of their tenure which could potentially impact the ground water resource for non mechanized recreationalists temporarily residing in the area; not to mention wildlife. Are they prepared to take the risk of non mechanized recreationalists inadvertently ingesting Hydraulic particulate contaminants?
I offer a follow-up report
http://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/toxprofiles/tp99-c5.pdf
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post #28 of (permalink) Old 04-23-2014, 08:14 PM
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Quote:
quote:Originally posted by TheDude

What's the logic on how expanding PMC's tenure will help control public snowmobiling? Commercial Rec tenure holders can't, or at least aren't supposed to, restrict public access, although they wish they could.
The existence of a tenure would be considered if the snowmobilers were to apply for an official trail/route etc. Not that this makes the tenure a good idea.
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post #29 of (permalink) Old 05-14-2014, 08:25 PM
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Quote:
quote:Posted - 04/22/2014 : 10:40 PM
Originally posted by scottN

Cat skiing will also bring a lot of garbage into the alpine around brew hut, making the area less pleasant for summer users. PMC has done a poor job of cleaning up bamboo marker poles left in the Cypress Peak area. If granted tenure around Brew Mountain, they will no doubt deploy the same practices and generate the same garbage. Garbage strewn over the alpine will detract from the experience of summer season users of Brew Hut.
Quote:
quote:Posted - 10/23/2008 : 8:48 PM

Hi folks, well I see everyone is a little upset. We have taken some steps to clean up this year and I hope this relieves some of our problems. We will also be changing the way we put the poles in the alpine this year to include numbers and Gps. I have added a couple of pictures of my wife Birgit and I in the Cypress area just recently doing some clean up. I also have a video of myself cleaning the Tricouni area on the 12th of October 08 I can e-mail it to you if you like. If you have anymore concerns please feel free to contact me anytime by phone 604-966-7645 or by e-mail [email protected] or my person e-mail is [email protected].
We have had some problems in the past but rest assured that we are working towards fixing the problem and keeping a clean area for us all to play.
Thank you and enjoy the hiking.
Gordon Calder
General Manager

PMC isn't picking up their garbage...that can't be right. Tell me it isn't so! How can that be, after all PMC, represented by Gordon Calder, assured us back in 2008 that PMC is working towards a fix. The garbage that your referring to Scott must have been left in the alpine by those pesky snowmobilers and not PMC.

And a reminder to those of you who wish to bad mouth a great corporate citizen such as PMC on Clubtread. You may get your post LOCKED by the Moderator as happened a few years back when people were complaining about the garbage PMC was leaving in the alpine then.
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post #30 of (permalink) Old 05-14-2014, 10:39 PM
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I can't tell if that was meant to be threatening or sarcastic.....

Wouldn't it be awesome if people ALWAYS did what they said they were going to do? (since we're using all caps)...

Just like I pick up every piece of excretion my canine companion leaves behind on our outings regardless of how remote and off-trail.

Not that one situation is related to the other, but I thought the premise that the Whistler Olympic Park was built under was that since it was a "winter-only" venue, it would have low impact wildlife of the area (specifically bears, more specifically transient grizzlies), as they would be hibernating. Not 5 years later, and we're hosting full weekend electronica music festivals at the venue, because it's bleeding money otherwise. http://www.believefreedomfestival.co...ival_info.html

The point is, if you build it, they (irresponsible users, hereafter referred to as "yahoos") will come, regardless of how good the intentions or how effectively policed it is, or, to put it another way, "Whatever isn't forbidden is allowed". I would love to say that I believe PMC has been a leader in the sustainability and preservation movement in the corridor, but I can't offer the benefit of the doubt as to their commitment, as the only evidence of it seems to have been posted in a timely manner one time a long time ago. Maybe they're great at it, maybe not, but my experience in the area is that when push comes to shove and the profitability of a business is at stake, the resource without a voice is the one to be abused. Further to that, I don't believe that preservation takes a role in PMC's business mission statement (whatever those thing are worth).

Just my $0.02, and I've been known to change my mind when shown the error of my ways.

As for having my account locked, I'd prefer to leave that up to the judgement of the level-headed moderator, thank you. So far, I haven't seen anything near unreasonable in this thread, unless it's purposed to be humourous (and not everyone has the same sense of humour).

For the record, I'm against this expansion for the same reason as I'm against the Cat Lake development. I don't think it's right to sacrifice the asset of the masses for the exclusive benefit of the paying.
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