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post #61 of (permalink) Old 11-14-2013, 10:03 PM
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Quote:
quoteh0n3y Posted - 11/14/2013 : 07:52 AM
The SUV is dead.
At least in North America.
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post #62 of (permalink) Old 11-14-2013, 11:50 PM
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Quote:
quote:Originally posted by sgRant
As for crash safety, the crush zones engineered into modern vehicles are exactly to reduce injuries to the occupants. I'd rather survive a crash in a vehicle that's crushed beyond repair, than be in one where injuries from the second impact are severe because the vehicle is a rigid metal box. Can't touch up the bumpers if I'm dead.
Well, I'd rather be in a solid truck than in a Smart car, that will get crushed (together with you inside) into a pile of rubble.
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post #63 of (permalink) Old 11-15-2013, 06:36 AM
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You don't know what you're talking about, Arnold.

I was in a head-on accident with a Silverado while driving my Yaris. My car was destroyed, with the engine under my feet, but I walked away. The crumple zones built into modern vehicles make them much safer than those old boats where any impact is transmitted directly to the driver.

The Smart car is designed on the same principles as a race car, with a built-in roll cage.
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post #64 of (permalink) Old 11-15-2013, 08:59 AM
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quote:Originally posted by peter1955

You don't know what you're talking about, Arnold.

I was in a head-on accident with a Silverado while driving my Yaris. My car was destroyed, with the engine under my feet, but I walked away. The crumple zones built into modern vehicles make them much safer than those old boats where any impact is transmitted directly to the driver.

The Smart car is designed on the same principles as a race car, with a built-in roll cage.
You're cracking me up!

Maybe these will set you straight:



And here's a video of an SUV getting completely destroyed by a semi:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=df5Jezb_pxs

Roll cage... LOL! Bunch of marketing hype BS that cost people lives.

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post #65 of (permalink) Old 11-15-2013, 09:26 AM
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Arnold, don't be too extreme.

this truck meet with a semi
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post #66 of (permalink) Old 11-15-2013, 09:50 AM
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I don't have a lot of faith in the impact resistance capabilities of most vehicles. As much as our 2012 Wrangler can climb roads like a bull dozer, it has the overall feel of a flimsy build. The stock roll cage, when you strip off the padding, is maybe a step up from a tack welded 'cosmetic' unit.

My buddy uses a 'Rock Hard' cage with his Wrangler which provides added stiffness and strength to the stock roll cage in the Wrangler. Looking at getting one.



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post #67 of (permalink) Old 11-15-2013, 12:19 PM
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quote:Originally posted by nickl

The wranglers are a nice rig...but when I looked at them there was so little room for dogs, gear etc....+ a little new for me to scratch up.

Although an unlimited would rectify that issue but again a bit new. That's how I ended up with a cherokee.
Good call. I would get a Cherokee over an Unlimited / 4 Door Wrangler any day. Heck, I'd take a Jeep Liberty over the 4 door Wrangler ;-P

The Unlimited / 4-Door Jeeps lose a lot of their trail worthiness with the extra bulk. I was 4x4ing alongside a 4 door Wrangler. It was impossible to get the 4-door over a fairly minor rockslide and as a result, it had to back down a steep/windy trail at a snails pace for about 5km. Could have walked out faster. Scared the whole time I would watch my friend slip off the edge or flip over trying to back down a trench. 1km down the mountain the fast way... scary stuff. Not only was the standard 2 door able get through the rockslide, it was able to get turned around on the same narrow trail, albeit a 15 point turn... and with that in mind the 15 point turn is relatively common on some of these trails, even with the 2-door.

As for storage, I have the 2-door. It's definitely no F-150 when it comes to hauling cargo, but here are some measures I took to get the most out of mine. I'm able to carry a lot more cargo than a Dakota or a Ranger. This might not work for everyone, but here's what I do:

- Removed the back fold-and-tumble seat right out and put it in storage.
- Installed these KargoMaster roofracks: http://www.gemini-sales.com/JEEP_KAR...ler_97_06.html
- Installed rear slide out storage rack: http://www.quadratec.com/products/12033_311_07.htm

I am able to fit two of these Roughneck Rubbermaids full of gear in the Box: http://www.canadiantire.ca/en/pdp/ru...l#.UoZiT22Vtpg

Disadvantage to the roofracks is that though they are rated for 500lbs, but anything over 150lbs I would say is too top heavy and unsafe. Disadvantage to the rear storage is that when extended, you lose trail worthiness. However, without using either, I can carry a lot of cargo for an extended camping trip:

9' inflatable boat, 30lb thrust electric motor, paddles, lifejackets, cooler, tents/mattresses/sleeping-bags/clothes/backpacks for two people, 2 flyrods, campchairs, socket set, propane stove, flat of water, beer, 2 12 volt deep cycle batteries, other misc gear + tools and 2-3 days worth of firewood. With the right tetris skills, I'm still able to see out the back and check my blindspot without obstruction.

I have even slept in the back a half dozen times. Diagonally from the passenger seat (pushes forward further than the drivers) to the drivers side rear wheel well, you have about 6.5 feet. As long as you don't try to roll over in your sleep, it's nice and comfy.

As for paint, I'm not shy about driving through branches, even big ones. I have hundreds of marks from trees, and the soft windows look like crap, but only a couple that made it through to the primer. I imagine a lot of them would buff out, but why bother? Still no rust on the body or the frame.

2003 with 120,000km, more than half dirt road and trails. So far my largest repair was taking out the multi-function switch to fix a broken circuit mechanism causing the fog lights to stay on. Also replaced a radiator hose with a slight leak near one of the seals. Only other repair was nut/washer working its way through battery hold down from all the bouncing around... replaced with beefier washer. Only needed 1 alignment so far.

Other problems I have not addressed: Very small leak in main rear seal, started at 106,000 and hasn't changed. Oozing gear oil from front diff, no noticeable change in levels even after 1 year. 1 balljoint has slight play. I'm pretty mechanical, but I have at least one professional inspection per year. I'll do the balljoints and diff seal next... but that main rear seal would be a pain, so I'm hoping it won't get much worse in the life of the vehicle.

After 10 years of relentless beatings, I suspect I still have another 5-10 years or 100,000-130,0000kms left before it is no longer worth maintaining.
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post #68 of (permalink) Old 11-15-2013, 01:25 PM
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The 4Dr Wrangler is an oddball, in my view. A big, boxy thing with nowhere near the nimble capabilities of the 2Dr. That short wheel base, clearance, power of the wrangler really shows up in the 2DR model. The 4DR's are big sellers though.

A down side of the 2DR is the maximum 4 person seating of the 2DR, and you have to be good with the 'tip+go' seat for back seat access (ours actually failed, but was replaced under warranty). For the two of us there's loads of room, just by tipping up the back seat. Removing the back seat yields a very large amount of room.

There are some great trailer hitch cargo accessories available these days, even some that tip back to let you open the side-swing tailgate of the Wrangler

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post #69 of (permalink) Old 11-15-2013, 02:24 PM
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people are going to have to accept that a smaller unit will be better for offroading.
If you want to carry all your stuff and extra people you will need to find other places than BC to explore. roads here are narrow, rarely maintained and erode heavily over winter spring, making for some serious slow going sometimes.

If you need a big rig, you will take lots of body damage and pay at the gas station. A slightly modified mid sized is most ideal.
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post #70 of (permalink) Old 11-15-2013, 04:01 PM
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Interesting read...

The JK 2dr has a 95 inch wheelbase, the 4dr a huge 116!

My Cherokee slots in nicely at 101 inches, pretty good for all the space.
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post #71 of (permalink) Old 11-15-2013, 05:12 PM
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Quote:
quote:Originally posted by Arnold

Quote:
quote:Originally posted by Aqua Terra
Of course there is a difference between rough back road like Cheam for example and full off road trails, which most don't encounter on CT, as the full on 4x4 trails most often don't even lead to a destination at all or of interest to hikers.
Of course, if someone simply wants to drive roads like Cheam, then he doesn't need a serious 4x4. The tamest crossover should be plenty enough. But a good 4x4 will open many more doors to explore the outdoors. Even if you don't go out far off the main roads, there are many 4x4 trails that lead down to a creek or a lake. I'm sure most will find these interesting and enjoying. There are also many lesser known peaks that can be scrambled, but you'd need to go off the beaten roads to get close to them. I feel that only driving a 4x4 to hike Cheam is a waste of an off road vehicle, or at least not using one to even half of its potential. And then you can find yourself in a nasty situation like a few got them into this summer when a slide happened behind them on the way to Twin lakes. They had their vehicles stranded for over a month or so, until someone made the road passable again. I haven't seen what the road was like right after the slide, but chances are with a good 4x4 and some shoveling, maybe some winching, they could have drove home that day. Well, at least when mud slide hit the road to Blowdown pass, people in their Wranglers were able to drive out, while that huge group of campers at the lake had to be rescued.
I don't have a dog in this fight, but I was one of the organisers of that group that got stuck at Blowdown (I was there the week before). Allow me to share a couple of photos that friends took of the Wrangler that was "able to drive out".



The way I've heard it, he took two shots at driving through the slide. First try, he got about ten feet then bogged down and another vehicle winched him back out. He thought he'd try another line, took a run at it, got about fifteen feet, bogged down worse and broke something.

Maybe a Unimog might have got through that mud, but not a Wrangler. Or at least not this one.
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post #72 of (permalink) Old 11-15-2013, 05:34 PM
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that sludge is hard on vehicles, and if that thing is stock drivetrain, the up sized tires under full load are putting massive strains on it.
so he drove out, but didn't make it through?
the winch vehicle could have snatch blocked him through before breaking something
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post #73 of (permalink) Old 11-15-2013, 07:09 PM
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Quote:
quote:Originally posted by Arnold

Quote:
quote:Originally posted by sgRant
As for crash safety, the crush zones engineered into modern vehicles are exactly to reduce injuries to the occupants. I'd rather survive a crash in a vehicle that's crushed beyond repair, than be in one where injuries from the second impact are severe because the vehicle is a rigid metal box. Can't touch up the bumpers if I'm dead.
Well, I'd rather be in a solid truck than in a Smart car, that will get crushed (together with you inside) into a pile of rubble.
There are times when someone can win a debate with a deceptive argument if it is sufficiently reasonable. This, and the semi-truck stuff, are examples of when the comparison is so bogus that it just lowers your credibility.
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post #74 of (permalink) Old 11-15-2013, 10:32 PM
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Quote:
quote:Originally posted by Bill Kinkaid
I don't have a dog in this fight, but I was one of the organisers of that group that got stuck at Blowdown (I was there the week before). Allow me to share a couple of photos that friends took of the Wrangler that was "able to drive out".



The way I've heard it, he took two shots at driving through the slide. First try, he got about ten feet then bogged down and another vehicle winched him back out. He thought he'd try another line, took a run at it, got about fifteen feet, bogged down worse and broke something.

Maybe a Unimog might have got through that mud, but not a Wrangler. Or at least not this one.
They drove out by winching out of that mud. Point is they got out, and were able to do so because they had capable vehicles. Yes, a winch makes it more capable even if it's all you have. The Jeep that broke down had his serpentine belt break, which is unfortunate.
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post #75 of (permalink) Old 11-15-2013, 10:37 PM
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Quote:
quote:Originally posted by sgRant
There are times when someone can win a debate with a deceptive argument if it is sufficiently reasonable. This, and the semi-truck stuff, are examples of when the comparison is so bogus that it just lowers your credibility.
It's bogus, simply because you have nothing else to say in your defense and it proves you wrong. But really, it's just physics. The bigger and more massive you are, the more beating you can take and the more beating you will hand out. There's a reason why in boxing they have different weight classes.
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