My thoughts on these two options are:

XTerra: Advantage is that it has a small wheelbase and the clearance is good on a stock vehicle. Disadvantage is that a lot of folks get short changed by the life of the drive train. Anything after 125,000km seems to be a gamble with the engine, tranny and transfer case. If you have not driven a top heavy vehicle with a similar wheelbase, there is a bit of a learning curve. Keep physics in mind whether on the trail, or going downhill into a curve on say the #5 or Canyon. If I recall correctly, statistically speaking these vehicles are one of the most deadly. It's easy to lose it. Don't worry about the guy behind you, other than to give him notice you're planing to take the corner nice and slow. Drive it like you would a semi. Hills like the steep one coming back down off the Coq, you'll want to do 90-100 max cornering at the bottom into the tunnel while sports cars and full sized trucks behind you want to do 140.

4Runner: Advantage is that we still see 20-30 year old 4Runners on the road with 500000-800000km and stock engines. Can't say for sure if they still make them like they used to. Disadvantage of this one is that if you are doing trails with any kind of trenches or washout--common on most logging roads / trails--you need a decent lift. The rear end of these vehicles sticks out and bottoms out very easy. When this happens, you can count on body damaged and a smashed rear windshield every time. It's a little more highway friendly than the XTerra.

As for standard versus auto, years of offroading and trails, I've never run into a situation where having one versus the other would have made a difference.

Have you considered a Wrangler? Any stock original size (not 4 door) will get you through pretty much any trail. Like the Xterra, it's a bit top heavy and you'll always be playing the physics game while driving. It is probably cheaper and 250,000-300,000k on the engine/tranny/xfer-case is pretty much a gimme. It is my vehicle of choice for all outdoor recreation. It's like a truck/ATV hybrid straight from the factory. Make sure it's a 4.0L. I tried one of the 4cyl Jeeps and merging onto the highway with a decent onramp is a challenge. I can't imagine climbing the Coq with one.

Also check out FJ Cruisers--though a little wide for some trails--are very capable vehicles. And if you're interested in trucks at all, the Toyota Tacoma 4x4's are pretty darn solid and last forever.

I'm somewhat surprised you'd warn about the Xterra being unstable, without mentioning that concern for the 4Runner.

First, no one has distinguished between the first and second generation Xterras, which are quite different. The first generation was derived from the first generation Pathfinder, which was a far more stable vehicle than the first generations of the 4Runner. The 1G Xterra/Pathfinder was wider and had a lower center of gravity allowed by mounting the engine low in the torsion bar front suspension. The 4Runner had its engine elevated to make room for the 4wd components. You can see this just by glancing at them. There have been far too many accidents on mountain roads in these 4Runners.


4Runner with chains, Grand Vitara barefoot



A different 4Runner

The first generation Pathfinders were as reliable as the peer 4Runners. The 4Runners may have durable engines, but they are rust buckets and the cabin is narrow with a high floor. The wheelbase difference is only 2".

The second generation Xterra is derived from the Titan pickup and is a totally different vehicle from the first generation.

The same goes for the 4Runner. Though the various generations aren't as different from each other as for the Xterra, the current 4Runner has nothing in common with the first. So you can expect very different characteristics, equipment, costs etc. And in turn, comparing just any Xterra with just any 4Runner is not so simple.

Getting outside the specific vehicle suggestions, I wouldn't buy an suv today without stability control and a full set of airbags.

You might have missed the part where I advised that the 4Runner was only a little more highway friendly, after discussing the instability of the XTerra ;-P

Lol, diffs are lowest - so what? That's a reason not to protect everything else? Sure a lift allows you to raise the diffs via tires so your vehicle can tackle tougher, more uneven terrain but even on the tamest unmaintained roads it's far from level. The diffs and Cvs are between your wheels therefore get raised up when you put your tire onto a high point. It's when the tire comes off said high point that the same high point (rock, stick, water bar etc) threatens everything else under the vehicle. Besides, my skids protect the majority of my cvs and that is reason enough to have plates under there. I've run my vehicle without the plates before, and even with a lift and 33" tires it makes me very nervous in some places.

Yes skidplates are good, have them on my vehicles, one wrong bash underneath you could end up with a split transfercase, transmission, or pan. Different I had 3 skid plates on my last chevy and scuffed one really good once

Anyone know anything about Surfs, Pajeros, or Prados (Land Cruisers)? I want a 4x4 SUV with a diesel engine and am all ears to comments/suggestions from this board.

OP, I dont know about Nissans, but I bet their Safaris are pretty awesome.

I own a pajero and it's an extremely capable 4x4 and no slouch as a comfortable, reliable daily driver as long as you're well informed about, and keep on top of general maintenance.

Generally Toyota engineering and build quality is much higher than the Mitsubishi in nearly all respects although you'll definitely want to stay away from the 2.4L engine in the Surf and Prado pre-93. Any that are on the used market now have probably had their head replaced but I would still be suspect of their long-term reliability due to an inadequate cooling system and other design inadequacies.

If you're going to go Toyota, get their flagship - 80 series landcruiser! Or any landcruiser really, and you'll be a happy driver.

My one gripe about the pajero, as I'm sure would be tru of the Prado and surf as well, is the lack of power against North American expectations. The pajero's fantastic for crawling up and down steep, tight 4x4 tracks, booting around in snow and ice, commuting up and down the sea to sky highway, but put me on the I5 or coquihalla and I want double what it gives. So far, after 7 years, I consider it a fair compromise to the upside.

[quote]quote:Originally posted by caddisguy

For quite a few years we ran many rigs in our engineering/forestry consulting business. Ford F150 4X4 pick ups, were always the most reliable, toughest off road rigs with lowest repair cost. Just not very nimble, being big slugs that they are. Down the list for reliability were the Jeep Wranglers/Grand Cherokees. Their build qualities have never been very good, in my view. However, the stock Wranglers always exceeded, by a wide margin, the off-the-shelf climbing ability and manoeuvrability of all vehicles. Nothing could match them in that area, and we had over 150 vehicles over fifteen years, to compare against.

So, for personal use we added a 2012 Wrangler Sahara 2 Door to our arsenal and indeed it is nothing short of excellent in its ability to grunt up and over the worst conditions a deactivated BC logging road can dish out. That said this vehicle's build quality is again, lousy. The engine, transmission, transfer case etc., are all so far very good. It's the components that are just plain bad. Window wiper failures, seat breakage, paint blistering, numerous leaks, eternally squeaky brakes and turn signal problems are just a series of constant annoyance, all fixed under warranty though. One more thing, the paint job on these rigs looks good, but you can scratch the finish with a matchstick. Useless, IMHO.

Still, with a nearly 290 HP engine, 18 inch wheels, killer low range and a load of gear it's one of the most fun 4X4 experiences you can have. So many times this summer we'd take off the roof panels on a hot , sunny day (very easy to do), play our fave CD in the nice stereo system and end up where nobody else could go. If you don't mind a 'problem child' vehicle, it's very good.

good, honest summary and very true.

I don't find it scratching any easier than other vehicles. And it's a 4x4, who cares about paint? If you care about paint, buy a car and stay on pavement.

You should have just stuck with the first sentence. It sounds like you're implying no one should care about their 4x4 vehicle's paint, even though it's a rust inhibitor for the body. It's not uncommon to be thinking 're-sale' value when purchasing and using a vehicle.

Sure, I'll just scratch the crap out of it and watch a 2012 vehicle's value drop by thousands. Aside from just an observation about paint quality, why do we care? Because these have all been business lease vehicles, which as any sensible business person knows, have a stated residual value upon return. A scratched-to-shit vehicle is a sure fire way to throw away huge bucks on a lease return.

For the record, with about 150 4X4 vehicles under our belt over the past twenty years, hands down the finish on the Wrangler is among the most scratch-prone we've seen. So, yeah, on those roads that aren't too badly brushed-in we take our Wrangler. Otherwise, we take our older, modified Grand Cherokee, with far less value and a much more durable stock paint job. We also buy many bottles of 'Mothers' Scratch Remover and use it liberally.

Scratches caused by bush aren't deep enough to cause rust.

If you're going to keep a vehicle for at least 10 yrs as most seem to, then what does it matter in the end? It will still be close worth to nothing. You may save $1000 in 10 yrs or whatever, but in those 10 yrs you will also miss out on many great experiences. You're going to pay either way, either in cash or in joy you get from experiences. What is more important to you?

In a business I could understand. But I'm talking about personal use.

I really can't imagine removing all the scratches this way, besides it won't even remove all of them. If I was so anal about it, I'd just get it painted after I'm ready to sell.

18's don't belong on a Jeep or any other 4x4 for that matter. I can't stand tiny/LP rubber on 4x4's/trucks personally. Aside from that - the lack of choice and cost of AT or MT tires in an 18 is nuts. 16's or 17's give you way more options and look way better.

I saw a Wrangler with 20's the other day and LP tires and it was the stupidest looking thing - ever.