The comment was made that sleds have little impact during winter. Please remember that impact is not just specifically about flora and environmental protection with respect to parks and conservancies. From an airborne observations perspective there is also impact on wildlife. What sledders don't see is wildlife in the area scattering from the noise of the approaching sleds.

No, I wasn't sure where you were coming from. Someone backing up Dave's attack could just as well have used the same smiley. So I was careful to point out that my response was not directed at you. Now that I know where you're coming from, thanks for the wry humor.

And to add to your comments about "hidden" impacts of snowmobiling, there's also the whole global warming business. People like snowmobilers will be among the last holdouts against this issue, and who are starting to look like flat-earthers.

This is the type of nonsense that creates the $20 trillion in debt the US is aiming for. I live in the county that has the highest unemployment in the state. It used to have a string logging industry, but the greenies killed that. Now, other than the mine, the biggest employer in town is the Forest Circus who spends all day creating new rules and regs to justify their existence. A fellow I work with just got slapped with a $980 fine and 2 year ban from a fishing / hunting license because he took his truck up a road that had been "closed" earlier last year to pack out a buddy's elk. The lock on the gate had been cut, gate was open, signs were removed by vandals, but the FS cop still went after him.

Is that really the sort of regulatory bullshit that you want in BC?

You see that from hikers as well. I will try to find the study where they radio tagged a bunch of animals and found that hikers moving through an area scared away more animals than sleds / dirtbikes. The thought was that because a sled passes by much faster, they don't have time to react and run like they do with a hiker.

Think i'm wrong? Then why is the best way to go deer hunting to slow the bullet down to 65mph and give it headlights?

Not only that, but another study found that buzzing wildlife with fighter jets actually caused their numbers to multiply, while people sitting at home reading their email was causing the animals to go extinct. Who woulda' thought!

Did you consider the animals might think the hikers are hunters? Do you think the caribou herds in BC are going extinct because of hikers?

On the topic of animals, Pmichaels your using your logic, animals are thinking only two things, eat and don't get eaten, they don't care about noise but rather movement. I have ridden my trials bike right past dear, dirt biked by elk and they don't care. What scares the crap out of them is being surprised. There have been a few times where I have been riding along and surprised a deer and he started bounding, I always hate to see them run scared since they look so fragile and as soon as i stop, they stop, then i just ride off...and he does not go back to his friends and discuss how some stupid dirt biker, or helicopter or whatever scared him, that is only done by humans, we rehash shit all day long to anyone that listens. The animal, as soon as the plane, rider or hiker has gone past, they go about their business and actually totally forget what just happened. They are looking for food and trying not to be killed.

Snowmobiles on the lake do nothing to the fauna either, and if people are that concerned with the fragile ground in the park then they should not even be ski touring in there....or hiking. Maybe they should close the entire park to any person?

I realize nothing I say will convince you of this and the whole point of this thread was people snowmobiling in the park which they should not be doing. I have only heard of this one other time 10 years ago so this is not something that happens often, and it should not ever happen. Go up to Garibaldi meadows sometime in the summer and daily through the week mountain bikers are riding through, even though they are not allowed..in my opinion they should open a biking trail through there so riders can enjoy it. Same with Spearhead, this will allow other users to enjoy the park to and they are the same as hikers..quiet and low impact.

I hope they catch those sledders who did this, but chances are they will not. I have posted this on my facebook as many other people have in hopes that someone who knows these guys or they themselves see that post and know what they did hurts the whole sledding community.

Off to Texas to see my new sled toys for 2014! You guys can continue bashing me and other sledders and have some fun!!

Although this is a pair of hounds, I feel this picture accurately demonstrates the reason caribou populations are lower than normal (the same can be said for moose, elk, deer, etc in MT, WY, and ID where the federal gov't felt it was needed to waste taxpayer money by introducing grey wolves [the much larger cousin of the Rocky Mtn wolves that were wisely exterminated from the area decades ago] to "control" elk populations)

**I was going post the picture, but I figured that it might be too gruesome for some. Warning, if you click on the link you will see a picture of two dogs with their throats ripped and left to die. You can thank grey wolves for this. It is the same thing they do you deer, elk, moose, and of course, your precious caribou.

http://thegreatwhitehunter.files.wor...led-hounds.jpg

It's not just the flora and fauna to be worried about! What about some dude ski touring who went to the park to get away from all the sleds? It affects him too.

Even if you like sleds and being near them... try to realize that others may not share the same point of view... you don't have to agree with their point of view, but realize it exists and consider respecting it...

no sleds should be in the park, everyone has said that from the beginning...I totally agree with you the park is a place for silent bliss and should always be that way!!! No one is arguing that sleds should be in or allowed in the park.

This is not really true as they use sound, smell, and sight to detect predators and will usually use the former to hide or escape before you even see them. Cumulative stresses in winter from any user group can cause increased movement in animals which require large amounts of energy to be used. depending on what they are habituated to noise from humans can be more or less stressful than snowmobiles. One source (Wildlife and Recreationists: Coexistence Through Management And Research) found that humans yelling and laughing can cause a greater response at greater distances than a snowmobile. to say that they don't care about noise is completely incorrect though.

Hi Dave
I was waiting for your reply and I hear ya. I know you're out there educating the choir and yes rules should apply to all with repect to protected areas. If you look at what you wrote though, keep in mind that the animals may relocate to a higher risk area of vulnerability whether it be hunters, traffic whatever. Do you think the Grizzlies of the Callaghan region enjoyed hearing trucks, blasting and all the noise during Olympic construction and then went on doing their business? I don't think so.

BTW if you ever want to hear about violations more than what you've heard of, you should research some of the Northern areas such as Smithers/Babine and Tweedsmuir Regions . In the 80's it wasn't unheard of for pilots to be shot at by sledders/hunters on the edge of Tweedsmuir Park, and then in the next breath have rocks flung at the aircraft by protesters when you tried to land anywhere.

So returning to my logic, generally speaking, we would hope people stay within the confines of designated trails within a conservancy or Park and and obey the rules which apply to fauna within that protected area. The difference being, it is the animals who then choose to either build a bond/trust or fear those travellers who are on the trails. Yes it is different in Winter time because skiers travel off path so they may occasionally frighten local fauna. The same in summer with respect to Bikes.

But I would suggest to you that loud noise does have an impact on fauna and subsequent abandonment thereof of their habitat. Noise from mechanized activity reverberates and bounces so it is difficult for animals to discern where it comes from. I can't even figure out sometimes which direction a sled is coming from. Yah I know, It's my opinion but I'm sure there are studies out there that support it.

Hence the idea of an environment protected from all mechanized activity ie: Trucks, sleds, choppers, blasting etc. Aside for emmergency flight, I assume you know that there are stiff penalties for Pilots who do so much as touch a skid inside Parks and conservancies without permission and the appropriate permits. Do you think think these rules are put in place only so some pilot can drop down, pull full colective and scare the shit out of Bambi? Absolutely not.

It's to ensure that mechanized recreationalists have their playground and that the fauna and their habitat have sanctity and solitude away from it to a certain degree.

So let's look at another scenario, Ducks Unlimited puts big bucks into establishing protected waterfowl habitats and conservancies. Do they want hunters walking up and spitting Buckshot into Daffy Duck's ass who's trying to get some R&R in the middle of a protected refuge? Absolutely not.

I know you know this and you do your part from a management perspective. Have fun in the Lone Star state.

First off you live in "the State" that has the highest unemployment "in the country" not the other way around. Your buddy sounds like he broke the law. Someone broke the lock, the elk is behind said vandalized locked area and he goes into retrieve it. Granted I do not know anything about this location so I'll reserve complete judgement.

Farmer, you're barking up the wrong tree with respect to myself. I try to keep a balanced opinion based upon personal and previous work experience. A good many recreationalists and Pros have worked in the resource sector and made serious contributions towards the sustainability and protection of our environment including promoting the development of conservancies and continue to do so. Shit half the ski patrol over the years have worked in a vast array of resource manangement fields so don't be preaching to me that we're responsible for the US deficit.

That's not correct. Ducks Unlimited works with hunters; hunters support Ducks Unlimited. It was started (in part) by hunters.

ps I wont debate this (here) this thread is already gone sideways and back again.

thanks for this, and as always I will never suggest it is okay to be in a park that is closed to motorized for all the above points you have mentioned. I like many out there and on here think and know sleds don't belong in the park however as I have stated this garibaldi incident is like a 1 in a million shot, like I said probably 10-15 years since it has happened before and hope it is longer for the next time it happens if ever(hopefully it never happens again) cheers dave

All true, however Ducks Unlimited does contibute to setting up refuges and conservancies closed to hunting to act as breeding grounds where the hunter's quarry may reproduce and rest in peace during migrations. Therefore pmichaels comment is, in fact, correct; the organization does not want hunters in those areas taking out the generation of birds responsible for future hunting opportunities in areas outside the boundaries of the refuges.

Hunter's were really the first group of environmentalists. Their connection to the land can be quantified and a need for sustainability is always top of mind. They're often thinking in 70+ year cycles rather than 4.

Farmer - have you ever been hunting in a non-motorized area? I'm going to throw it out there and suggest that looking for deer at 65mph from a road is probably not going to meet with a very high success rate. I'll also suggest that their might be a fairly good reason outfitters pay big bucks for tenure in non-motorized regions.

Getting back to sleds and their impact on wildlife populations- there is significant talk in game management circles that the increase in off trail sledding, is responsible for the decline in ungulate populations - especially mountain caribou.

Caribou are pretty darn good in the deep snow owing to specialized hooves, but they don't compare to a predator running along a frozen set of sled tracks. The theory suggests that predators, especially packs of wolves, are using the frozen tracks of sleds as highways into the wintering range of ungulates throughout the province. Wolves can travel 150kms in a day over the tracks and be fresh for a chase through the deep stuff afterwards. So the comment about the tracks being just snow and ice shows extreme callousness and ignorance from my perspective.

IMO, the economic activity produced by sleds in overrated. Common to public discussions about economics, is the systemic failure to subtract.