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post #121 of (permalink) Old 12-26-2012, 09:38 AM
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http://kimkircher.com/2012/12/23/bombs-away/

in other places they bomb the outta bounders


Unfortunately we had a very close call during the heli mission in the Niagras and Employee Housing areas. Employee Housing is the new slide path created a few years ago, and it is roped off with the rest of Niagras. You must enter Employee Housing first through Gate 7 then through Gate 8 and drop in from the top. However, poachers have been consistently ducking the rope from the Left Angle Trees area. We have caught many of these violators, who have lost their skiing privileges. These poachers could also pay a hefty fine.

But one hapless poacher almost lost more than his season pass on Friday. He almost lost his life. A ski patroller had positioned himself along the rope line to make sure no one ducked the rope while the helicopter dropped it's payload on the slope. (As an aside, let me just state that this use of personnel is not only a waste due to the actions of non-law abiding patrons, but also a contributing factor to why Northway doesn't get open earlier. If we have to expend a patroller to prevent and chase after poachers, that's one less team working on an avalanche route.)

The helicopter had just dropped a 50lb. shot onto the middle of Employee Housing when a poacher ducked the rope. The ski patroller positioned along the rope line yelled at him, “Fire in the hole! Avalanche control in progress! Fire in the hole!” The skier, dressed in all black, looked up at the patroller and stopped. Then he did a very stupid thing. He dug his poles into the snow and pushed off into the open slope. The ski patroller kept yelling until his voice was hoarse. He made a radio transmission informing the blasting team of the poacher. There was nothing anyone could do but watch. The 90-second fuse had been lit and now, in less than a minute, the slope would explode.
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post #122 of (permalink) Old 12-26-2012, 03:12 PM
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Quote:
quote:Originally posted by bearbreeder

http://kimkircher.com/2012/12/23/bombs-away/

in other places they bomb the outta bounders

... There was nothing anyone could do but watch. The 90-second fuse had been lit and now, in less than a minute, the slope would explode.
Talk about luck keeping him alive, hopefully he learned this lesson.

K
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post #123 of (permalink) Old 12-26-2012, 10:59 PM
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Ok here's where a very important distinction has to be made. Bearbreeder - the subject "poacher" of your posted article was not an "out of bounder". He was within the resort and entered an avalanche closed area, which is a permanantly or temporarily designated closed area inside the ski resort boundary where active avalanche control is taking place.

The legal, ethical, safety distinctions between these boundaries and resort boundaries is immense and I implore those of you who believe "rope ducking" is against the law or other such media fed nonsense, to investigate the difference.

The media lead witch hunt of "out of bounds" skiers must stop immediately and it starts with the outdoors people learning what the hell it is they're talking about. Yes, something should be done about people that are woefully unprepared ducking ropes and ending up in cliffed out creeks. But bringing about blanket legislation, prosecuting people, fines, and civil court proceedings are not the way to deal with it.

All this uneducated talk about the latter only encourages the wannabe backcountry skiers to go underground and scoff at the society outlawing them rather than following a path to the competency they most likely seek.
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post #124 of (permalink) Old 12-26-2012, 11:47 PM
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Quote:
quote:Originally posted by Summit Seeker

Ok here's where a very important distinction has to be made. Bearbreeder - the subject "poacher" of your posted article was not an "out of bounder". He was within the resort and entered an avalanche closed area, which is a permanantly or temporarily designated closed area inside the ski resort boundary where active avalanche control is taking place.

The legal, ethical, safety distinctions between these boundaries and resort boundaries is immense and I implore those of you who believe "rope ducking" is against the law or other such media fed nonsense, to investigate the difference.

The media lead witch hunt of "out of bounds" skiers must stop immediately and it starts with the outdoors people learning what the hell it is they're talking about. Yes, something should be done about people that are woefully unprepared ducking ropes and ending up in cliffed out creeks. But bringing about blanket legislation, prosecuting people, fines, and civil court proceedings are not the way to deal with it.

All this uneducated talk about the latter only encourages the wannabe backcountry skiers to go underground and scoff at the society outlawing them rather than following a path to the competency they most likely seek.
Hear, hear!
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post #125 of (permalink) Old 12-27-2012, 11:37 AM
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well people say "something should be done"

what is it specifically ... theres been enough media coverage that you cant say people dont know, theres signs, theres common sense ... and theres plenty here who want to do it anyways, some better "prepared" than others ...

people here dont want fines, dont want restrictions, dont want people "criticizing" others, dont want any names, etc ... as an aggregate you dont really want anything ... perhaps its working perfectly so far?

its up to you what you do, you take the risk .. but if you do mess up stupidly youll become intraweb famous
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post #126 of (permalink) Old 12-27-2012, 04:25 PM
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Quote:
quote:Originally posted by Maxim

They do check your backpack if you are going to ski out of bounds in whistler
No, they don't. They make you show that you have a beacon, shovel, probe, and climbing skins to purchase a backcountry lift pass. It's simply a filter to prevent people from abusing the discounted lift ticket.

I estimate that roughly half of the people in the W-B slack/back-country on any given day have purchased a backcountry pass. The rest are season pass holders who would never be questioned by anyone about what gear they have with them. As someone mentioned above, it is unlikely that any ski resort would take on the liability of "approving" that anyone accessing the backcountry from within their boundary was suitably prepared to do so.

Quote:
quote:Originally posted by sgRant

W-B actually has some very "formalized" exit points for people going out-of-bounds, in the form of gates and signs at those points.
The backcountry "gates" at W-B are purely cosmetic. They serve no enforcement function and there certainly is no requirement that you pass through them to access the backcountry. At best they are a place to hang a few warning signs that may, or may not, be read by those who pass by them. I think they do make an effort to post the latest avy bulletin, which is convenient if you don't want to go into one of the lodges. The gate on Blackcomb glacier does have a beacon check device, which is also convenient.
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post #127 of (permalink) Old 12-27-2012, 04:45 PM
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Quote:
quote:Originally posted by Summit Seeker

Ok here's where a very important distinction has to be made. Bearbreeder - the subject "poacher" of your posted article was not an "out of bounder". He was within the resort and entered an avalanche closed area, which is a permanantly or temporarily designated closed area inside the ski resort boundary where active avalanche control is taking place.

The legal, ethical, safety distinctions between these boundaries and resort boundaries is immense and I implore those of you who believe "rope ducking" is against the law or other such media fed nonsense, to investigate the difference.

The media lead witch hunt of "out of bounds" skiers must stop immediately and it starts with the outdoors people learning what the hell it is they're talking about. Yes, something should be done about people that are woefully unprepared ducking ropes and ending up in cliffed out creeks. But bringing about blanket legislation, prosecuting people, fines, and civil court proceedings are not the way to deal with it.

All this uneducated talk about the latter only encourages the wannabe backcountry skiers to go underground and scoff at the society outlawing them rather than following a path to the competency they most likely seek.
THIS
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post #128 of (permalink) Old 12-28-2012, 02:38 PM Thread Starter
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Here is one argument for changing the way SAR is funded:
As a part of the Garibaldi Park Management Plan Amendment for the Spearhead Area, heli-skiing will continue to be allowed and one of the main reasons that was cited is that heli-skiing helps to improve safety.
In other words, Parks is willing to accept all of the negatives associated with heli-skiing (the public doesn't support it, it has an impact on mountain goats and wolverines, it is not consistent with the goals of the park, it interferes with non-motorized visitors, etc.) because they need to rely on commercial presence in the park to ensure public safety.


From the draft:
"Whistler Search and Rescue underscored the pressures a hut system could place on volunteer emergency responders, and emphasised the need for a safety plan. They also emphasised the
importance of the heli-ski operator's presence in providing a measure of public safety
and assistance with emergency response."

68% of respondents are against heli-skiing continuing in the park.

However, parks has decided to allow heli-skiing to continue:
"Furthermore, the presence of the heli-ski operator in the park provides an important measure of public safety. "
"Should huts be developed in the park, the continued presence of heli-skiing could be a
benefit to the hut system through the provision of support services and public safety
and emergency response."


We are selling out our parks to commercial activities in return for assistance with SAR activities. What next? Should we allow heli-hiking to Panorama Ridge?
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post #129 of (permalink) Old 12-28-2012, 02:46 PM
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Quote:
quote:Originally posted by Steventy


We are selling out our parks to commercial activities in return for assistance with SAR activities. What next? Should we allow heli-hiking to Panorama Ridge?
They drop people on The Table for picnics,apparently, so how far away can that be?
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post #130 of (permalink) Old 12-28-2012, 03:04 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
quote:Originally posted by mick range

Quote:
quote:Originally posted by Steventy


We are selling out our parks to commercial activities in return for assistance with SAR activities. What next? Should we allow heli-hiking to Panorama Ridge?
They drop people on The Table for picnics,apparently, so how far away can that be?
Yes exactly. If heli-skiing is important for public safety then how can we be sure that the next amendment won't allow heli-hiking based on an argument that it's important for public safety.

Do you have any more info on heli-picnics at Table Mountain? I thought that " Arriving or departing from the park by aircraft;" was disallowed with the exception of the current heli-skiing permit.
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post #131 of (permalink) Old 12-28-2012, 10:11 PM
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Quote:
quote:Originally posted by bearbreeder

well people say "something should be done"

what is it specifically ... theres been enough media coverage that you cant say people dont know, theres signs, theres common sense ... and theres plenty here who want to do it anyways, some better "prepared" than others ...

people here dont want fines, dont want restrictions, dont want people "criticizing" others, dont want any names, etc ... as an aggregate you dont really want anything ... perhaps its working perfectly so far?

its up to you what you do, you take the risk .. but if you do mess up stupidly youll become intraweb famous
Sorry Bearbreeder, I hope that you won't think that I'm picking on you becuase I'm not, but I'd like to address your thoughts with some of my own.

Wrt "something should be done" - Specifically I would like to see our entire cultural paradigm change. It would be wonderful if we could start consistently applying society's ideals and teaching people risk management alongside simple multiplication tables in grade 4.

Since none of the above is likely to be addressed in any meaningful way, and given that we recognize at least some degree of problem with "out of bounds skiers"; the culture of backcountry recreation needs to change. It's a worthy goal in a region that draws uncountable residents and visitors in patronage to the mountains.

Ski resorts can do a lot more to encourage responsible travel beyond their boundaries. It's doing everyone a disservice to pretend that terrain outside the ropes, or the wilderness at large is either nonexistent or somehow unnavigable without being some sort of superhero. Put up topo maps onlongside the waivers and sustainability propaganda plastered everywhere in the lodges, put up codes of backcountry mountain travel alongside the skiers responsibility code. Make it clear where interested people can go to get the training and knowledge they desire in addition to posting current forecast ratings, what they mean, and how to use them. Connect the dots for people, by advertising the consequences of bad deciscions but also facilitate open dialogue of how the risks are being managed by a slew of competent, experienced people - the media coverage you claim spells out the risks, largely ignores this. Provide and perhaps even advertise the contact info for qualified guides willing to take people where they want to go and help them to manage their risk while they are still learning. I could go on............

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post #132 of (permalink) Old 12-28-2012, 11:32 PM
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Hmmm page 7 and still the lost snowboarder hasn't shown up here yet...



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post #133 of (permalink) Old 12-28-2012, 11:51 PM
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Ducking a rope in a ski area and getting cliffed out is pretty dumb.

Doing something like that more than once is pretty idiotic.

I've done a few dumb things in my life - nothing that required a rescue - but hope never to do anything truly idiotic in the backcountry.

So the guy was dumb, not idiotc, and I can't really censure him for ducking the rope. Most people wouldn't dare to, or wouldn't unless they had their hands held. And there's a whole wide world out there beyond the rope that's wonderful, exhilarating and utterly beautiful.

Education and being humble before nature is the key.
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post #134 of (permalink) Old 12-29-2012, 01:08 AM
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Quote:
quote:Originally posted by Summit Seeker

Sorry Bearbreeder, I hope that you won't think that I'm picking on you becuase I'm not, but I'd like to address your thoughts with some of my own.

Wrt "something should be done" - Specifically I would like to see our entire cultural paradigm change. It would be wonderful if we could start consistently applying society's ideals and teaching people risk management alongside simple multiplication tables in grade 4.

Since none of the above is likely to be addressed in any meaningful way, and given that we recognize at least some degree of problem with "out of bounds skiers"; the culture of backcountry recreation needs to change. It's a worthy goal in a region that draws uncountable residents and visitors in patronage to the mountains.

Ski resorts can do a lot more to encourage responsible travel beyond their boundaries. It's doing everyone a disservice to pretend that terrain outside the ropes, or the wilderness at large is either nonexistent or somehow unnavigable without being some sort of superhero. Put up topo maps onlongside the waivers and sustainability propaganda plastered everywhere in the lodges, put up codes of backcountry mountain travel alongside the skiers responsibility code. Make it clear where interested people can go to get the training and knowledge they desire in addition to posting current forecast ratings, what they mean, and how to use them. Connect the dots for people, by advertising the consequences of bad deciscions but also facilitate open dialogue of how the risks are being managed by a slew of competent, experienced people - the media coverage you claim spells out the risks, largely ignores this. Provide and perhaps even advertise the contact info for qualified guides willing to take people where they want to go and help them to manage their risk while they are still learning. I could go on............

theres already tons of stuff out for anyone willing to do the proper research and learn ... however those who take the time and listen generally arent the ones that get intraweb famous

theres a certain person who just ignores basic safety precautions and just does whatever they want ... sometimes it ends up OK .. other times it ends up tragically, like those folks who ignored the warning signs and rail at the falls at yosemite ...

it doesnt matter how many signs you put up, or how much you try to "educate" some people ... theyll go out and do whatever they want ... and oddly enough expect to be rescued

take drunk driving, its been well known and a real crime for the last few decades with tons of "education", yet year after year, people still do it and get caught ... because a certain amount of the population doesnt care

i think that theres a culture out there that ignores basic common sense and rules ... and its glorified, as evidenced by some of the comments here ... now im not saying all rules make sense or are good, but if you break em you take your chances

as long as NSR has sufficient funding, theyll just keep on rescuing those people ... and on the intrawebs some of those people will become famous ... if you get into the news rightly or wrongly people WILL comment on it ... and if you did a few funny things then take the licks as they come, a soul "brave" enough to duck the rope should be able to take a bit of online criticism if they get a free whirly bird tour

but theres no real worry for everyone as the reality is that nothing will change ...
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post #135 of (permalink) Old 12-29-2012, 09:02 AM
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Quote:
quote:Originally posted by Steventy

Quote:
quote:Originally posted by mick range

Quote:
quote:Originally posted by Steventy


We are selling out our parks to commercial activities in return for assistance with SAR activities. What next? Should we allow heli-hiking to Panorama Ridge?
They drop people on The Table for picnics,apparently, so how far away can that be?
Yes exactly. If heli-skiing is important for public safety then how can we be sure that the next amendment won't allow heli-hiking based on an argument that it's important for public safety.

Do you have any more info on heli-picnics at Table Mountain? I thought that " Arriving or departing from the park by aircraft;" was disallowed with the exception of the current heli-skiing permit.
Well I'm really going by hearsay, but I've heard it said a number of times before. However, it's quite typical to be hiking in Garibaldi and be disturbed by air traffic, that I can vouch for
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