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post #91 of (permalink) Old 12-22-2012, 10:46 PM
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quote:Originally posted by Kid Charlemagne

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quote:Originally posted by sgRant



While all of the non-government SAR groups are volunteer, many of the volunteers are paid through provisions in collective agreements. Similar to compensation for jury work.
What do you mean by 'non-government SAR group'? Groups like North Shore Rescue are provincially regulated entities. While they are staffed by volunteers, I think referring to them as 'non-government' is misleading, as they are part of the provinces emergency framework.

And this idea that "many of the volunteers are paid through provisions in collective agreements" simply isn't true. What are you basing that on?
As smac said, I used the term "non-government" to distinguish NSR-type groups from paid professionals directly employed by government. While NSR-type groups certainly coordinate with government agencies, I don't think they're government agencies.

I have the impression that some collective agreements provide for members to do things like jury duty and search and resecue on paid time. I also believe some salaried people don't lose pay or have to make up time used for search and rescue. But your challenge is valid because I don't have any proof I can post.
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post #92 of (permalink) Old 12-22-2012, 10:55 PM
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http://www.theprovince.com/sports/Re...823/story.html

another out of bounder

Rescue crews out again on Cypress Mountain make voice contact with stranded out-of-bounds snowboarder

....


A statement from Cypress Mountain after Boucher's rescue chastised the man for the “reckless adventure.”

Jones said Saturday's rescue highlights how snowboarders and skiers still aren't getting the message about on-hill safety.

“There's nothing more we can say,” Jones said. “We've done our bit to let people know what the hazard is.

“You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink it.”

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post #93 of (permalink) Old 12-23-2012, 12:07 AM
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quote:Originally posted by sgRant



As smac said, I used the term "non-government" to distinguish NSR-type groups from paid professionals directly employed by government. While NSR-type groups certainly coordinate with government agencies, I don't think they're government agencies.

I have the impression that some collective agreements provide for members to do things like jury duty and search and resecue on paid time. I also believe some salaried people don't lose pay or have to make up time used for search and rescue. But your challenge is valid because I don't have any proof I can post.
I get what you're saying. I personally view SAR as a government agency. We're trained by the government, insured by the government, and part of PEP, under the Ministry of the Attorney General. I can say that BCAS regards SAR as another agency, and SAR regards BCAS as another agency, so in my mind, SAR volunteers are government agents, just not employed.

Some people may work for employers that allow them to leave work to participate in SAR tasks, and some of those workers may be salaried. Many SAR tasks take place outside of working hours, in the evening or at night. I can say for sure that the collective agreement under which I work provides no compensation for time off for SAR tasks. Of the literally dozens of SAR members I know, I can only think of one or two that can legitimately leave work for SAR and still get paid, but that's more to do with the nature of their job. Those are by far the exception, and not the rule.
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post #94 of (permalink) Old 12-23-2012, 09:29 AM
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Quote:
quote:Originally posted by sgRant

Quote:
quote:Originally posted by Justa

OMG, I've become one! That's what I get for typing without my morning coffee.
But seriously, what is the answer? It is a sore spot with me; the issue of unpaid emergency responders. Why are some of the most technical and dangerous jobs in B.C. operated on a volunteer basis? I believe all emergency personnel should be professional, paid positions. Yes, I am not calling for less money spent, but MORE money spent. That should be popular.
While all of the non-government SAR groups are volunteer, many of the volunteers are paid through provisions in collective agreements. Similar to compensation for jury work.
This is entirely inaccurate. There is no payment to the volunteers, not even a stipend as in a volunteer (more accurately a paid on call) fire department.

As for the other earlier comment about all first responder/emergency personnel being paid as professionals...this should also include BC ambulance which is a joke.
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post #95 of (permalink) Old 12-23-2012, 09:52 AM
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Just another thought.
Yes, the system has worked more or less the way it is set up but it is not ideal. The expectations on SAR groups is that they run as corporations with policies and procedures and follow all worksafe legislation. The number of volunteer hours that have to be devoted to that and the cost associated is a deterrent to many volunteers. I've also had many calls where members cannot attend due to work committments. There is no stable funding so even if there are no calls for the group they have fixed costs to insure their equipment, licence their radios, pay their phone bills etc, just to "keep the doors open"

Another point of clarification for those that don't know. NSR will not have to fundraise for the $100,000 that the rescue cost. There are reimbursement rates that cover the actual cost of the tasks but the day to day operations are not funded nor is the purchase of necessary equipment. The volunteers take a great deal of pride in doing this and it shows in the professionalism and the equipment and training that they bring to the table. To a lot of people that dont know otherwise, it would be easy to mistake them for paid professionals.
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post #96 of (permalink) Old 12-23-2012, 10:19 AM
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What about posting pictures of idiot out of bounds people who had to get rescued because they were stupid enough to think it would not happen to them, near the ski lifts and lodges.
Public humiliation goes a long way as it puts a face to the story .
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post #97 of (permalink) Old 12-23-2012, 11:07 AM
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Quote:
quote:Originally posted by brucew

What about posting pictures of idiot out of bounds people who had to get rescued because they were stupid enough to think it would not happen to them, near the ski lifts and lodges.
Public humiliation goes a long way as it puts a face to the story .
Sure, but let's be fair, these rescues are a drop in the bucket compared to other costs incurred by the province by people's negligent behaviour. So brucew, in the spirit of fairness, let us also publicly humiliate the following:

- smokers who incur healthcare costs related to smoking
- overweight or obese people who incur healthcare costs due to lifestyle choices
- anyone who causes a car accident requiring emergency services or hospitalization
- anyone who receives long-term disability payments for accidents caused by their own undue care or negligence
- in-bounds skiers or boarders who choose to ski or board beyond their ability and require rescue/extrication/ambulance/hospital services for in-bounds accidents
- anyone on social assistance
- anyone that uses a food bank because they can`t afford their own food

I think you get the point.
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post #98 of (permalink) Old 12-23-2012, 12:57 PM
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Food banks and social assistance are due to negligent behavior?
I get the point, ....but its probably not the one you thought you were making.
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post #99 of (permalink) Old 12-23-2012, 01:06 PM
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quote:Originally posted by Justa

Food banks and social assistance are due to negligent behavior?
I get the point, ....but its probably not the one you thought you were making.
Food banks and social assistance are often the result of a series of missteps or mistakes in ones life, not necessarily negligence. Much the same as requiring SAR can be the result of a series of missteps or mistakes, not necessarily negligence.
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post #100 of (permalink) Old 12-23-2012, 07:24 PM
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Quote:
quote:Originally posted by Kid Charlemagne

Quote:
quote:Originally posted by brucew

What about posting pictures of idiot out of bounds people who had to get rescued because they were stupid enough to think it would not happen to them, near the ski lifts and lodges.
Public humiliation goes a long way as it puts a face to the story .
Sure, but let's be fair, these rescues are a drop in the bucket compared to other costs incurred by the province by people's negligent behaviour. So brucew, in the spirit of fairness, let us also publicly humiliate the following:

- smokers who incur healthcare costs related to smoking
- overweight or obese people who incur healthcare costs due to lifestyle choices
- anyone who causes a car accident requiring emergency services or hospitalization
- anyone who receives long-term disability payments for accidents caused by their own undue care or negligence
- in-bounds skiers or boarders who choose to ski or board beyond their ability and require rescue/extrication/ambulance/hospital services for in-bounds accidents
- anyone on social assistance
- anyone that uses a food bank because they can`t afford their own food

I think you get the point.
LOL

Last time I checked you could not die within 48 hrs from smoking or being a pig at the buffet.

Your "argument" reminds me of the pro-gun advocate who says assault rifles should not be banned because "cars and booze kill people too".

Google comparative reasoning and come back to us with a correct comparison.
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post #101 of (permalink) Old 12-23-2012, 08:11 PM
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quote:Originally posted by Kootenay Kid

Just another thought.
Yes, the system has worked more or less the way it is set up but it is not ideal. The expectations on SAR groups is that they run as corporations with policies and procedures and follow all worksafe legislation. The number of volunteer hours that have to be devoted to that and the cost associated is a deterrent to many volunteers. I've also had many calls where members cannot attend due to work committments. There is no stable funding so even if there are no calls for the group they have fixed costs to insure their equipment, licence their radios, pay their phone bills etc, just to "keep the doors open"

Another point of clarification for those that don't know. NSR will not have to fundraise for the $100,000 that the rescue cost. There are reimbursement rates that cover the actual cost of the tasks but the day to day operations are not funded nor is the purchase of necessary equipment. The volunteers take a great deal of pride in doing this and it shows in the professionalism and the equipment and training that they bring to the table. To a lot of people that dont know otherwise, it would be easy to mistake them for paid professionals.
I appreciate you setting the record straight and broadening my perspective on the matter. I thought the collective agreement I worked under had provision for covering search&rescue, but I no longer have a copy to check.
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post #102 of (permalink) Old 12-23-2012, 08:49 PM
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wow, this conversation has gone ballistic. Relax people, he didn't commit a crime or hurt you. He got lost in the mountains, it could happen to you too. Exercise a little compassion...please.
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post #103 of (permalink) Old 12-23-2012, 10:22 PM
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So the tally for this week rescues, 3 events. Family of four plus the two individuals.

You have to feel for the SAR people, being called out... and from what I read almost all do not get compensated for their efforts. Volunteers they area. This has really got to be so tiring, these "out of bounders" just not getting the message....

K
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post #104 of (permalink) Old 12-23-2012, 10:45 PM
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I'm looking forward to some "out-of-bounding" tomorrow. But i'm armed with knowledge of the area and terrain, a map and ability to use it, good sense with lots of alternate plans available, conservative avy decisioning, avalanche training and practice, competent partners, leaving my plan with someone i can trust, 10 essentials, the proper equipment (avy gear, splitboard, with skins and poles, extra layers, first aid kits), etc. etc. etc.

And guess what I do this kind of thing often (gasp!) and so do many I know, and I can honestly say none of us have ever required SAR's services or been in any truly bad situations. We know the risks, keep it conservative and have so far managed a perfect safety record with 100's of incredible days of backcountry sliding enjoyment in the mountains of BC and abroad.

Though I do agree that many "out-of-bounders" are woefully ill-prepared with little knowledge of what they're getting into and certainly no idea what they don't know, making bold and poor decisions. It is a problem, education is key, but let's not paint such broad strokes of all "out-of-bound" skiers and boarders in our mountains.
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post #105 of (permalink) Old 12-23-2012, 10:55 PM
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Quote:
quote:Originally posted by splitboarder

I'm looking forward to some "out-of-bounding" tomorrow. But i'm armed with knowledge of the area and terrain, a map and ability to use it, good sense with lots of alternate plans available, conservative avy decisioning, avalanche training and practice, competent partners, leaving my plan with someone i can trust, 10 essentials, the proper equipment (avy gear, splitboard, with skins and poles, extra layers, first aid kits), etc. etc. etc.

And guess what I do this kind of thing often (gasp!) and so do many I know, and I can honestly say none of us have ever required SAR's services or been in any truly bad situations. We know the risks, keep it conservative and have so far managed a perfect safety record with 100's of incredible days of backcountry sliding enjoyment in the mountains of BC and abroad.

Though I do agree that many "out-of-bounders" are woefully ill-prepared with little knowledge of what they're getting into and certainly no idea what they don't know, making bold and poor decisions. It is a problem, education is key, but let's not paint such broad strokes of all "out-of-bound" skiers and boarders in our mountains.
Yes, Good well informed, educated, and aware of the risks. . So what do they consider "out of bounders", going past a certain boundary or line ? So if someone makes mistakes going out of bounds, aware of the risk, .. hope that person is truly well prepared for anything; ?self-help? reprimand by SAR if that person really gets into trouble.

So education "awareness" really might be a good best idea for those people who just don't have the knowledge to really get themselves out of trouble.

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