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post #16 of (permalink) Old 06-08-2010, 12:16 PM
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Quote:
quote:Originally posted by Matt

In regards to the peak names: He has to call them something.
Uh, yes. It's called research. It means knowing the area and the climbing history. It means having a process that respects local knowledge and is accountable for correcting its errors and minimizing its excesses.

If there is no recorded history or you are ignorant of it, there is a handy scheme whereby you just refer to a lesser peak in relation to a higher, nearby named peak. So you might have Mamquam SE1 to refer to a summit that is 1 km southeast of Mamquam Mountain. It's pretty much unambiguous and doesn't have the flaw of one person's laziness or lack of originality justifying questionable names that are then foisted on the climbing community as a fait d'accompli.

If nothing else, Peak 5700, for example, is more acceptable to me than the ludicrous names invented by Robin.
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post #17 of (permalink) Old 06-08-2010, 01:53 PM
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Wow, I had no idea that this controversy existed. Although, I often wondered what I was looking at on Bivouac when some unknown name appeared in an area I thought I knew well.

If this is a major issue (and I would think the naming process is pretty major) it could well be addressed at the same time as a revision of Bivouac.

It's plain to me, as I'm sure it is to many, that Bivouac is in need of an update. The interface, while amazing in its time, is outdated and has, i would think, been made obsolete by the wiki system. Similarly, the mapping system has probably been made obsolete by Google Earth. I'm sure there are enough interested people out there, with enough skill and knowledge to make a collaborative project work, and I for one would be happy to help.

Obviously, I'm not a "big name". I don't even know any of the big names, let alone Robin. If a revision of Bivouac is going to be done, someone who knows Robin has to approach him about this and get him involved. At this point I wouldn't support an effort to create a replacement without input from him. I think his legacy should be protected, whether his peak naming policies are retained or not.

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post #18 of (permalink) Old 06-08-2010, 02:14 PM
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Quote:
quote:Originally posted by Eryne

Gee, I don't know how you could specifically refer to something that is shown on a map. UTM coordinates, lats and longs, even simple map grid references uniquely identify points on map. Made up names can do that, too.
And if my reading of a grid reference is off by a bit, how can I find it in the database? And if two features have the same grid reference within some margin of uncertainty, how does the end user identify them uniquely? The end user is back to using a serial number. Not a good design practice.

I agree that his quest to throw arbitrary names a every insignificant little bump has gone overkill. The database is fairly complete, and my opinion is that Robin does it out of boredom.

Quote:
quote:Originally posted by shrubhugger

...For example, 'Crazy Peak' in the Cadwallader Range had been referred to as such in published trip reports, but Robin decided to change its name to Cadwallader Peak, alienating the authors of the trip reports (going so far as to change the name within the trip reports that were on Bivouac). This is an indication of the core of the Bivouac peak naming problem: Robin's attitude...
Yes, but what if somebody else gives it another name in their trip report? Then you have two names for the same feature ("record" in database terms), which is a no-no in database design. Maybe another field like "alternate name" would be appropriate.

Robin's goal appears to be a concise data structure describing mountain peaks. If the name of the peak changes, then all references to the peak have to be changed as well. Just like when you move you change all references to your present address. This might be offensive to the authors involved, but it's proper database design practice. Otherwise you would have a reference to a peak name that doesn't exist. You don't want an end user to have to research the history of a peak name if they just want to climb the peak or read trip reports about it.

Maybe he should cite some rationale and references, but I think (with some exceptions) that the problem has been blown out of proportion.
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post #19 of (permalink) Old 06-08-2010, 02:41 PM
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Quote:
quote:Originally posted by Matt
[br
And if my reading of a grid reference is off by a bit, how can I find it in the database?
The same argument could be made if a typo is made in the spelling of a name.

Anyways Matt, my boss insists that cloud computing will make this kind of problem go away [}]
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post #20 of (permalink) Old 06-08-2010, 02:47 PM
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Quote:
quote:Originally posted by mad owl woman

Quote:
quote:Originally posted by Matt
[br
And if my reading of a grid reference is off by a bit, how can I find it in the database?
The same argument could be made if a typo is made in the spelling of a name.

Anyways Matt, my boss insists that cloud computing will make this kind of problem go away [}]
Yes, but a typo is correctable. What if something is right on the border of two digits on the NTS map, a very likely scenario? Then I have to go back to the map and/or do another search, unless the database does a search within a certain radius.
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post #21 of (permalink) Old 06-08-2010, 03:02 PM
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Quote:
quote:Originally posted by Coastal

Wow, I had no idea that this controversy existed. Although, I often wondered what I was looking at on Bivouac when some unknown name appeared in an area I thought I knew well.

If this is a major issue (and I would think the naming process is pretty major) it could well be addressed at the same time as a revision of Bivouac.

It's plain to me, as I'm sure it is to many, that Bivouac is in need of an update. The interface, while amazing in its time, is outdated and has, i would think, been made obsolete by the wiki system. Similarly, the mapping system has probably been made obsolete by Google Earth. I'm sure there are enough interested people out there, with enough skill and knowledge to make a collaborative project work, and I for one would be happy to help.

Obviously, I'm not a "big name". I don't even know any of the big names, let alone Robin. If a revision of Bivouac is going to be done, someone who knows Robin has to approach him about this and get him involved. At this point I wouldn't support an effort to create a replacement without input from him. I think his legacy should be protected, whether his peak naming policies are retained or not.
The original purpose of bivouac.com was a demonstration project for Robin Tivy's web database design business, Bluesoft. It's his personal pet project, so it shouldn't come as a surprise that he wants complete control over it. I don't think Robin would never move the bivouac.com data over to another system because he likes working on the system, adding features, etc.
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post #22 of (permalink) Old 06-08-2010, 03:04 PM
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Matt, from some of your comments it sounds like you haven't used Bivouac. One of the best things about it is that everything is georeferenced. So if you know the appoximate coordinates of a peak, you should have no trouble finding it in the database. That's the whole point of the radius search and the java maps. You don't need to use text search at all.

There are many good things about having proper names for peaks. They are easy to remember. I don't think anybody would argue that unnamed peaks should never get proper names. However, proper names are certainly not needed for uniquely identifying peaks. If you have access to Bivouac, look up Boulder Peak for example. There's quite a few of them.
If generated names sometimes produce ambiguity, the problem is certainly no worse than with proper names.
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post #23 of (permalink) Old 06-08-2010, 03:05 PM
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Here's how I imagine peak names being dealt with in my imaginary perfect world. Officially named mountains (by whatever government authority) should be labelled as such. Officially unnamed mountains should be labelled with an algorithmic identifier and have subfields for suggested/alternate/generally accepted names. If there is a dispute about what the name should be then the dispute should be noted. A wiki would then have the ability to support an open discussion on what the name of the peak should be. All this could then be packaged off to the government authority in any application to have a name made official.
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post #24 of (permalink) Old 06-08-2010, 03:05 PM
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I didn't know you wrote that. It's one of the few useful features - seemed so at odds with the clunky almost-caveman like raw 1990s retro CGI band-aid frankly godawful clunky scripting of the rest of bivouac. Now it makes perfect sense why that functionality seemed so out of place


Quote:
quote:Originally posted by Stoked

Quote:
quote:Originally posted by ecoulthard
Interaction with google maps would be a great replacement for Robins javamaps.
I own "Robin's javamaps", not Robin. I wrote and own the source code and allow Bivouac to use the executable code. Anyone wants to use the executables just get in touch with me. The map software can display anything: roads, trails, mountains, coastlines, river, lakes, towns. You can overlay it on top of a background such as a JPEG or GIF map, as long as the background map can be "georeferenced", i.e. you know the coordinates of the corners.

In fact, I pretty much digitized the bulk of roads and trails in Bivouac for about the first ten years so I've got intellectual property there too. Robin's thing was always the mountains. It's only recently, when there's more and better trip reports outside of Bivouac that he's focused on the road and trail information as a means of distinguishing Biv from the masses.

I think a site like Clubtread would be a better way to host a road and trail database. I was never happy with the user pay model and since then Bivouac has deteriorated on a piecemeal basis over a number of years. Just ask Dru and several other "big names" that I can think of. With the fiasco over the peak names I've become embarassed to be associated with it.

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post #25 of (permalink) Old 06-08-2010, 03:19 PM
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Quote:
quote:Originally posted by scottN


The original purpose of bivouac.com was a demonstration project for Robin Tivy's web database design business, Bluesoft. It's his personal pet project, so it shouldn't come as a surprise that he wants complete control over it. I don't think Robin would never move the bivouac.com data over to another system because he likes working on the system, adding features, etc.
If it's true that the system is his baby and not the information contained in it then you might be right. Maybe there is no option than to start from scratch with an open alternative. It would be a crying shame to not be able to recover all the information already in Bivouac though.
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post #26 of (permalink) Old 06-08-2010, 03:33 PM
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quote:Originally posted by shrubhugger

Matt, from some of your comments it sounds like you haven't used Bivouac. One of the best things about it is that everything is georeferenced. So if you know the appoximate coordinates of a peak, you should have no trouble finding it in the database. That's the whole point of the radius search and the java maps. You don't need to use text search at all.
Yes, but what if the peak doesn't have a name? Then you just have a bunch of dots on the Java map with some serial number beside them. If it's too insubstantial to name then it probably shouldn't be in the database at all.
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post #27 of (permalink) Old 06-08-2010, 03:50 PM
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Quote:
quote:Originally posted by Matt

Yes, but what if the peak doesn't have a name? Then you just have a bunch of dots on the Java map with some serial number beside them. If it's too insubstantial to name then it probably shouldn't be in the database at all.
I think in that case if it is a mountain that is hiked, using the ID# in the database is the next best thing, including coordinates. The ID# is just a reference # from the database, at any time a mountain name can be updated or assigned in relation to the ID#... But every item would have an ID# whether it has a name or not. Database talk...



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post #28 of (permalink) Old 06-08-2010, 07:41 PM
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Quote:
quote:Originally posted by AcesHigh

Quote:
quote:Originally posted by Matt

Yes, but what if the peak doesn't have a name? Then you just have a bunch of dots on the Java map with some serial number beside them. If it's too insubstantial to name then it probably shouldn't be in the database at all.
I think in that case if it is a mountain that is hiked, using the ID# in the database is the next best thing, including coordinates. The ID# is just a reference # from the database, at any time a mountain name can be updated or assigned in relation to the ID#... But every item would have an ID# whether it has a name or not. Database talk...
Yes, but good practice is that you don't have end users dealing with the internals of the database. You don't see a book with no title, and only identified by an ISBN. It's all fine and dandy to talk about ID numbers if you understand databases, but to make end users deal with them directly is poor design from an application developers point of view. Although it appears that Robin Tivy doesn't have much interest in user friendly applications.

I still think this has been blown way out of proportion.
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post #29 of (permalink) Old 06-08-2010, 09:03 PM
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The fields in the database should be coded to meet user needs; not the fevered imagination of the keeper of the holy database.


Quote:
quote:Originally posted by Matt

Quote:
quote:Originally posted by AcesHigh

Quote:
quote:Originally posted by Matt

Yes, but what if the peak doesn't have a name? Then you just have a bunch of dots on the Java map with some serial number beside them. If it's too insubstantial to name then it probably shouldn't be in the database at all.
I think in that case if it is a mountain that is hiked, using the ID# in the database is the next best thing, including coordinates. The ID# is just a reference # from the database, at any time a mountain name can be updated or assigned in relation to the ID#... But every item would have an ID# whether it has a name or not. Database talk...
Yes, but good practice is that you don't have end users dealing with the internals of the database. You don't see a book with no title, and only identified by an ISBN. It's all fine and dandy to talk about ID numbers if you understand databases, but to make end users deal with them directly is poor design from an application developers point of view. Although it appears that Robin Tivy doesn't have much interest in user friendly applications.

I still think this has been blown way out of proportion.
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post #30 of (permalink) Old 06-08-2010, 09:55 PM
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I just think you're going to run into the same issue if you try to reproduce such a database here. Eventually ad hoc names are going to make their way in.
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