Tragedy near Canmore - Page 3 - ClubTread Community

User Tag List

Closed Thread
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
post #31 of (permalink) Old 07-31-2012, 05:34 PM
Headed for the Mountains
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: the mountain parks, Alberta, Canada.
Posts: 103
Default

Quote:
quote:Originally posted by sandy

Actually, Lynn Hill did not finish tying her knot, which failed not her harness. But why am I even thinking of arguing with T2C????
In any case the point stands as it's the same type of "stupid" mistake that a person of any experience level can make. And in the future, if you are going to quote me please refrain from the insults. If you are going to at least spell it out rather than use some obscure abbreviation that no one understands but in context it's obviously not a compliment. Perhaps it is you that is the T2C!
skibum101 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #32 of (permalink) Old 07-31-2012, 06:35 PM
High on the Mountain Top
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: , BC, Canada.
Posts: 2,463
Default

Simu-rappelling or normal rappelling, shouldn't there have been knots in the bottom of the rope? Is the difference in safety between simu-rappelling and normal rappelling much different if both parties are using a back-up and there is a large enough knot in the rope?
Steventy is offline  
post #33 of (permalink) Old 07-31-2012, 07:01 PM
Headed for the Mountains
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: the mountain parks, Alberta, Canada.
Posts: 103
Default

Quote:
quote:Originally posted by Steventy

Simu-rappelling or normal rappelling, shouldn't there have been knots in the bottom of the rope? Is the difference in safety between simu-rappelling and normal rappelling much different if both parties are using a back-up and there is a large enough knot in the rope?
Having knots...there is no right or wrong answer as it is situational, like most things but there will be people saying to ALWAYS do this or that a certain way. If they didn't have knots then it will be very difficult to know if it was an improperly threaded device or if it was due to one or both going off the end. If it were an improperly threaded device then knots are irrelevant.

It can be argued that if it were an improperly threaded device then knots at the end may have saved the other by jamming in to the anchor, but there are situations where the knot might pass such as through large radius rap rings ect which would make the argument nothing more than semantics. Sorry...just thinking through my fingers in real time here.
skibum101 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #34 of (permalink) Old 07-31-2012, 07:56 PM
Summit Master
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Finally stopping that crazy suffering that is ice, climbing to concentrate on great ski tours!, .
Interest: Anything that can drag me to the mountains. Backpacking is #1, followed by climbing, dayhiking and camping with family.
Posts: 3,782
Default

Rapping is dangerous because you 100% rely on the anchor. Any small error can easily lead to a long fall, as you're already at the top of the pitch.

It's easy to be complacent, and it's also easy to make errors as rapping typically comes at the end of the climb. People are tired, perhaps hurrying a bit to get down, beat weather, beat the dark and so on.

As for Heart Creek, there are some sweet multi-pitch routes in there.
johngenx is offline  
post #35 of (permalink) Old 07-31-2012, 11:32 PM
High on the Mountain Top
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: , , .
Posts: 1,081
Default

Quote:
quote:Originally posted by skibum101

Quote:
quote:Originally posted by Steventy

Simu-rappelling or normal rappelling, shouldn't there have been knots in the bottom of the rope? Is the difference in safety between simu-rappelling and normal rappelling much different if both parties are using a back-up and there is a large enough knot in the rope?
Having knots...there is no right or wrong answer as it is situational, like most things but there will be people saying to ALWAYS do this or that a certain way. If they didn't have knots then it will be very difficult to know if it was an improperly threaded device or if it was due to one or both going off the end. If it were an improperly threaded device then knots are irrelevant.

It can be argued that if it were an improperly threaded device then knots at the end may have saved the other by jamming in to the anchor, but there are situations where the knot might pass such as through large radius rap rings ect which would make the argument nothing more than semantics. Sorry...just thinking through my fingers in real time here.
.....but if one person came completely off, and you were relying on the knot to hit the anchor, wouldn't that still allow more than enough free fall to finish the other person?
DCIPHER is offline  
post #36 of (permalink) Old 08-01-2012, 12:11 AM
High on the Mountain Top
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: north van, bc, Canada.
Interest: hiking / camping
Posts: 1,093
Default

in simu raping would it not make sence to tie the ends of the rope together? even if your parter came off. (belay device, harness fail etc. worst case you'd only fall to the bottom of the loop of rope (which could be a 60m fall..) but still in the system and beats not stoping at all.
smac is offline  
post #37 of (permalink) Old 08-01-2012, 07:49 AM
Dru
Super Moderator
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Climbing, a mountain, Canada.
Interest: climbing and spraying
Posts: 16,175
Default

Quote:
quote:Originally posted by smac

in simul rapping would it not make sence to tie the ends of the rope together?
no. it makes for some horrible tangles. it does make sense to tie two separate stopper knots, one in each end of the rope, though.
Dru is offline  
post #38 of (permalink) Old 08-01-2012, 08:03 AM
High on the Mountain Top
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: in da bush, alberta, Canada.
Interest: playing guitar,drums fly-fishing,hiking,scrambling,mountaineering
Posts: 1,073
Default

please guys...if i ever die out in the mountains,don't turn my death into a thread like this.

filled with comments from people who obviously started climbing 5.12 right out of the womb and big headed losers that like to make up multiple alias's, that laugh in their posts on a thread about someones death.
nmcan84 is offline  
post #39 of (permalink) Old 08-01-2012, 10:07 AM
Headed for the Mountains
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Invermere, BC, Canada.
Posts: 179
Default

nmcan84 - if you are an experienced climber with thoughts on this I would like to hear them. I climb occasionally - not as much as I'd like and am not an expert and do not climb 5.12 but I do do high angle rescue and am always looking to learn and improve and do things safer. If this can be a discussion on ways to prevent this from happening again by talking about best practices then I think that is a good thing. The people involved need to be respected but the rest of us should be taking this as a way to learn and grow our own experience without scaring or injuring ourselves to learn the lesson.
Kootenay Kid is offline  
post #40 of (permalink) Old 08-01-2012, 10:25 AM
High on the Mountain Top
 
Blucruisin's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: in the valley, BC, Canada.
Interest: Spending time with my man and family, relaxing with good friends and good food, hiking, paddling,
Posts: 1,570
Default

Quote:
quote:Originally posted by nmcan84

please guys...if i ever die out in the mountains,don't turn my death into a thread like this.
ditto
Blucruisin is offline  
post #41 of (permalink) Old 08-01-2012, 10:39 AM
High on the Mountain Top
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: in da bush, alberta, Canada.
Interest: playing guitar,drums fly-fishing,hiking,scrambling,mountaineering
Posts: 1,073
Default

My thoughts would on this would be:

First of all,we weren't there when it happened and we don't know all the details,so we can't make any judgement on what was the cause of the accident and how it could've been avoided.

some possible scenarios are:

If the anchor failed itself,then maybe backing it up if it looked old or slightly untrustworthy would've saved their lives. a piton,a nut or even a cam is worth way less than a life or two,but alot of climbers dont seem to think this way.

If one of them did not rig their rappel device properly,then knots in the rope may have saved one life if it got jammed in the anchor,but it is hard to say because the person still on the rope would take a decent fall,one long enough where death could still occur on certain terrain.

Checking their rappel before they unclipped from the anchor would've solved this.i almost had it happen to me at wasootch a couple years ago,BUT i remembered to bounce on the device before i unclipped from the anchor and then realized that in my rush to get down,one strand of rope was not clipped in. i wouldn't have died,but i would've got injured nicely.

If it was just them simul rapping and one of them was not used to doing so and lost control,then having knots in the rope might have saved them both from death,but not injury.

we dont know what happened for sure,but those are three of the possibilities and what would've resolved them. i am not that experienced with climbing,but i know enough to get by.

everyone makes mistakes when they are in a rush or tired and trying to get down a mountain.
You just have to remember that it is more important to take a moment and not rush down the mountain,unless you have equal chances of dying from just being up there any longer and that typically doesn't ever happen unless you are on a long harder alpine route.

Check your anchors,check your belay and harness,it only takes a minute.
nmcan84 is offline  
post #42 of (permalink) Old 08-01-2012, 01:09 PM
Headed for the Mountains
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Victoria, BC, Canada.
Posts: 232
Default

Another safety measure that can be used is a prusik backup, so that if you let go of the rope, it holds you. This could save you if you got hit by rockfall or something. Admittedly, I often forego this measure on rappels where my rope ends are on the ground and I don't have any gear to clean. But for simul-rappelling, I think that taking all the safety precautions is a good idea, because two people's lives are at risk, not just one.
retep is offline  
post #43 of (permalink) Old 08-01-2012, 03:37 PM
Summit Master
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Finally stopping that crazy suffering that is ice, climbing to concentrate on great ski tours!, .
Interest: Anything that can drag me to the mountains. Backpacking is #1, followed by climbing, dayhiking and camping with family.
Posts: 3,782
Default

If I die in the mountains, I'm dead, and don't give a crap what anyone says. In fact, I hope that if I goofed, everyone picks apart what I did wrong and someone learns from it and doesn't repeat my mistake.

I do my ABCDE

A - Anchor: If suspect, add more gear.
B - Buckles: Are my harness buckles properly done up?
C - Carabiner: Locked?
D - Device: Are the strands through my device properly?
E - Ends. Are the ends of the rope either visible on the ground/station or knotted?

Then, as Shaun noted, I remain tethered to the anchor and weight it fully with a small amount of slack in the tether. The problem, of course, with the "bounce" test is that if the anchor is no good, and blows, well, you're still sunk. You've got to make sure the anchor is 100% before going. If possible, put in some back up pieces for all but the last one to rappel.

When rapping with inexperienced people, the most experienced person pretty much always goes down first to deal with the next anchor. The problem is then you have someone inexperienced up at the high station all alone. Pre-rigging works very well in that situation. Of course, pre-rigging won't prevent a disaster if the anchor blows.
johngenx is offline  
post #44 of (permalink) Old 08-01-2012, 04:57 PM
Summit Master
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: , , .
Posts: 2,833
Default

It seems pretty clear that this accident is a simul-rap gone wrong. It is easier and safer to simul-rap with a gri gri as you have more control and it is pretty hard to rappel off the end of the rope. Not impossible, but harder than with a standard ATC. There was, a few days before this, a similar rappel accident at Wasootch where the woman did not thread her ATC right and took a 20 metre fall.

Not to be a dick about this - and I certainly didn't climb 5.12 out of the womb and can't climb 5.12 now, but we just came back from climbing Beautiful Century (an OK route, but not stellar) and we simul-rapped the route. With two experienced climbers using a gri-gri, it felt safe, and, was, as I've said before much faster.

Dcipher, calling someone by their (quasi) real name is not, IMHO, an insult. Making up - what 5 aliases? - is an insult to the intelligence of everyone on this board. I don't know why Kevin does not post under his real name, but calling him on it does not constitute an insult.

And, climbing is a lot like driving, at some point, you have to have confidence that you can do some things properly and safely - tie in, rig a rappel, self-arrest, kick some steps - put your seat belt on, change gears, etc. If you have no confidence in your own competence at all, you'll never get off the belay/ground.
sandy is offline  
post #45 of (permalink) Old 08-02-2012, 12:57 AM
High on the Mountain Top
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: , , .
Posts: 1,081
Default

Quote:
quote:Originally posted by sandy


Dcipher, calling someone by their (quasi) real name is not, IMHO, an insult. Making up - what 5 aliases? - is an insult to the intelligence of everyone on this board. I don't know why Kevin does not post under his real name, but calling him on it does not constitute an insult.
Come on Sandy, this is disingenuous...in fact, it's downright dishonest. If you think that we can be tricked into believing that your post didn't clearly imply that being T2C/Kevin is negative, NOT because of some discussion point in this thread, but because of some inherent personality trait, then you have little regard for the readers of clubtread.

You clearly made a negative statement about T2C, and then insulted skibum by saying he was T2C. Even the one post nut, mtntime, whose post was otherwise incomprehensible, clearly perceived that. If you're going to insult somebody, at least own up to it.

As to your assertions, I have no idea is skibum is T2C. I certainly wasn't aware he had multiple aliases. What are the they? If you're going to call him on it, then tell us what you know.

As to climbing vs driving, I'm sure you're right that you must have confidence in your ability to do it. Having said that, there are even more restrictions/guidelines etc about driving....that is supposed to make things safer....certainly some practices are safer than others, and some are more recommended than others. I think it's good you and others are sharing your opinion about it.
DCIPHER is offline  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page



Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome
 

Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.1