Mandatory Flu Vaccine for Health Workers - Page 2 - ClubTread Community

User Tag List

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
post #16 of (permalink) Old 08-26-2012, 12:01 AM
Summit Master
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Finally stopping that crazy suffering that is ice, climbing to concentrate on great ski tours!, .
Interest: Anything that can drag me to the mountains. Backpacking is #1, followed by climbing, dayhiking and camping with family.
Posts: 3,782
Default

Hundreds of millions of people have been vaccinated against all kids of diseases, and it's completely changed the way our children grow up. Where as I had serious diseases that threatened my life (and my father was exposed to worse) my daughter has had NOT ONE serious illness. What a change in three generations, thanks to vaccines. My Dad had polio, I had measles, mumps, chicken pox and hepatitis. My daughter has had a few colds.

Even if there are side effects, the risk of the side effects is infinitesimal compared to the benefits from the vaccinations.

What would we like back? Pertussis? Polio? Small pox? Oh, yeah, Pertussis fatalities are rising because of the anti-vaccination BS. Thanks for that you nut-jobs. Babies can't be vaccinated in time and are dying thanks to the non vaccinated lunatics.

I grew up in the far north and saw diseases like Pertussis, TB, and others ravage communities and kill people, mostly children. Yup, we sure long for those days. Christ.

Teachers are offered the flu shot, and I get one. Yeah, it's not a magic bullet against all flus, etc, but it can protect you against some. A slightly sore arm vs. the flu? I'll take the slightly sore arm.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lhk7-5eBCrs
johngenx is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #17 of (permalink) Old 08-26-2012, 01:00 AM
High on the Mountain Top
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: , BC, Canada.
Posts: 2,463
Default

Quote:
quote:Originally posted by johngenx

Hundreds of millions of people have been vaccinated against all kids of diseases, and it's completely changed the way our children grow up. Where as I had serious diseases that threatened my life (and my father was exposed to worse) my daughter has had NOT ONE serious illness. What a change in three generations, thanks to vaccines. My Dad had polio, I had measles, mumps, chicken pox and hepatitis. My daughter has had a few colds.

Even if there are side effects, the risk of the side effects is infinitesimal compared to the benefits from the vaccinations.

What would we like back? Pertussis? Polio? Small pox? Oh, yeah, Pertussis fatalities are rising because of the anti-vaccination BS. Thanks for that you nut-jobs. Babies can't be vaccinated in time and are dying thanks to the non vaccinated lunatics.

I grew up in the far north and saw diseases like Pertussis, TB, and others ravage communities and kill people, mostly children. Yup, we sure long for those days. Christ.

Teachers are offered the flu shot, and I get one. Yeah, it's not a magic bullet against all flus, etc, but it can protect you against some. A slightly sore arm vs. the flu? I'll take the slightly sore arm.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lhk7-5eBCrs
I think that you will find some legitimate reasons for people to question the way this new policy is being implemented. Don't assume that the bulk of the resistance has anything to do with safety.

Here are two big questions (that have nothing to do with the safety of vaccines.)

1)
Patient safety (particularly being infected while in a hospital,) will almost certainly be an election issue in the spring.
See: http://www.bcndp.ca/newsroom/failed-...-democrats-say

Is this new policy the highest priority for keeping patients safe (and the most effective use of time/money) or has it bubbled to the top for purely political reasons? It will certainly make a good speaking point in the debates. What's really driving this decision? Is our provincial health officer able to effectively represent patient interests or is he a puppet for the premier of whichever party is in power?

2)
The unions were only given two weeks to comment on the policy before it was enacted. Is that reasonable? If Alberta wanted to pass a rule saying that all teachers were required to get a flu shot or wear a mask to school, would you expect more than two weeks to provide input?

3)
See my earlier post. It doesn't look like they have a good execution plan in place.

Steventy is offline  
post #18 of (permalink) Old 08-26-2012, 01:49 AM
Summit Master
 
Ryan.in.yaletown's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Van, BC, Canada.
Posts: 3,231
Default

As I understand it, it's not even a mandatory vaccination (in the sense that they have to get it or else, and there's no other option). They have a choice. If they don't get it, they have to wear a mask around patients. Not quite forcing vaccinations on them.

-Ryan
Ryan.in.yaletown is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #19 of (permalink) Old 08-26-2012, 07:43 AM
Summit Master
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Finally stopping that crazy suffering that is ice, climbing to concentrate on great ski tours!, .
Interest: Anything that can drag me to the mountains. Backpacking is #1, followed by climbing, dayhiking and camping with family.
Posts: 3,782
Default

Quote:
quote:Originally posted by Steventy

I think that you will find some legitimate reasons for people to question the way this new policy is being implemented. Don't assume that the bulk of the resistance has anything to do with safety.
Oh, I'm not assuming that at all. In fact, health care professionals (all I know) keenly understand the very high value and extremely low risk of vaccinations. However, some of that anti-vaccination BULLSHIT has already crept into this thread. And instead of calmly quoting stats or science, it's time for people to start reacting strongly to this garbage. Yes, vaccines have risks, but the degree is so small it's one of the least risky things one can do. If you won't get an immunization, then stop driving your car, stop riding on planes, trains, or heading to the mountains. Don't eat in restaurants, and don't buy food in a grocery store. In fact, just kill yourself now so you can avoid the uncertainty of the millions of things that have a greater chance of affecting your health ahead of vaccines.

Sanitation (clean, safe drinking water and sewage disposal) and vaccines are two things that have had some of the most positive effects on the health of western populations.
johngenx is offline  
post #20 of (permalink) Old 08-26-2012, 12:43 PM Thread Starter
High on the Mountain Top
 
Kid Charlemagne's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: BC
Posts: 1,486
Default

John, your hyper-emotional response is pretty damn condescending to anyone who dares question the efficacy of the flu vaccine. The idea that all vaccines do what they're intended to do is a little far-fetched. Certainly some will, and certainly some won't. To suggest that science and altruism are all that guides public health policy is naive. Prescription drugs are a great example. Some people would surely die in the absence of compliance, while other drugs are over prescribed, useless, or even harmful.

Your family history is ridiculously anecdotal. I'm happy for you and your daughter that she has had better health than you did growing up. My parents and grandparents all enjoyed good health, and still do. My brother, on the other hand, died in his early 20's, most likely from pre-term medical interventions that were, at the time, understood to be 'safe'.
Kid Charlemagne is offline  
post #21 of (permalink) Old 08-26-2012, 12:54 PM Thread Starter
High on the Mountain Top
 
Kid Charlemagne's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: BC
Posts: 1,486
Default

FYI, the following statement, taken directly from the CDC website, illustrates my issue with the vaccine.

"It is not possible to predict how well the vaccine and circulating strains will be matched in advance of the influenza season, and how this match may affect vaccine effectiveness."

http://www.cdc.gov/flu/professionals...tivenessqa.htm
Kid Charlemagne is offline  
post #22 of (permalink) Old 08-26-2012, 02:29 PM
Banned
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Chwk, , Canada.
Posts: 5,318
Default

Quote:
quote:Originally posted by Kid Charlemagne

To suggest that science and altruism are all that guides public health policy is naive.
+1

Is there anyone here of the Boomer-generation who DIDN'T have the standard "childhood" illnesses (mumps, measles, chickenpox, etc)?
It was almost a rite of passage, but nowadays we want to immunize everyone from everything!
You have to ask yourself WHO is benefiting the most from injecting us with hit-and-miss vaccines for strains of flu that "might" show up this season?







TheShadow is offline  
post #23 of (permalink) Old 08-26-2012, 04:40 PM
Off the Beaten Path
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: , , .
Posts: 889
RamblingBull is offline  
post #24 of (permalink) Old 08-26-2012, 05:01 PM
Summit Master
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Finally stopping that crazy suffering that is ice, climbing to concentrate on great ski tours!, .
Interest: Anything that can drag me to the mountains. Backpacking is #1, followed by climbing, dayhiking and camping with family.
Posts: 3,782
Default

Quote:
quote:Originally posted by TheShadow
It was almost a rite of passage,
A rite of passage that killed (and is now on the upswing again) babies (Pertussis) and created a lot of deaf kids (maternal Rubella) that are now in their late 40's. Polio crippled people. It wasn't a day home from school with some ginger ale, but possibly a life altering disease. Small pox was eradicated through the use of vaccines. Chicken Pox can cause shingles in adults that had the disease as a child. I went through it and I'm glad my daughter won't. There's nothing romantic or pleasant about any of these diseases. Mumps can have very serious consequences for those that contract the disease post-puberty.

Measles? Yeah, we all want THAT. There was a time when almost everyone did get it, and it sucked. There are still developing parts of the world that have high infection and fatality rates from it.

From Wiki:
----------------------------------
While the vast majority of patients survive measles, complications occur fairly frequently, and may include bronchitis, and panencephalitis which is potentially fatal. Also, even if the patient is not concerned about death or sequela from the measles, the person may spread the disease to an immunocompromised patient, for whom the risk of death is much higher, due to complications such as giant cell pneumonia. Acute measles encephalitis is another serious risk of measles virus infection. It typically occurs two days to one week after the breakout of the measles exanthem, and begins with very high fever, severe headache, convulsions, and altered mentation. Patient may become comatose, and death or brain injury may occur
----------------------------------

It's fine to question the flu shot, and the debate about mandatory immunization is fine. What is crap is the total "anti immunization" campaign that is made up of Jenny McCarthy hyped non-science that is based on nothing more than a few morons (she's a Playmate, not a scientist) that use the internet to spread their lies.

The flu vaccine is not part of the normal round of immunizations in children and adults. It's because the disease is difficult to target, and in healthy people, has few long term effects. It kills the elderly with regularity, but otherwise healthy people don't have a lot to fear from the flu, normally.
johngenx is offline  
post #25 of (permalink) Old 08-27-2012, 08:40 PM
Headed for the Mountains
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Maple Ridge, BC, Canada.
Posts: 393
Default

I am also affected by this and thinks it's a completely decent expectation.

I have to wonder what the real issue is with such a simple thing. At this point, it's safe to say the anti-vaccine crowd (that connects it to all sorts of fundamentally unrelated conditions) is a fringe egged on by unscientific media clowns.

Maybe a fear of needles is the concern?

I mean, if it does nothing, or misses on its predictions, then no harm no foul. If it does catch the bug and end it, you either don't get sick or don't pass it on. At any rate, it's a policy focused on the most likely petri dishes: we who work with the sick. I don't see enforced hand-washing or glove-wearing as a significant infringement on my liberties. It's just a smart way to reduce spread of infection.

I'm trying to see what the opposition is other than some fringe fear-mongering that vaccines contain autism or whatever hogwash has become the pseudo-controversy of the day,
Cherry Pirate is offline  
post #26 of (permalink) Old 08-27-2012, 09:46 PM
Super Moderator
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Calgary, Alberta, Andorra.
Interest: hiking, backpacking, scrambling, climbing
Posts: 4,439
Default

I can see reason for concern in the way it is implemented, as a couple people seem to have expressed. I am often concerned with even decent ideas when they seem to have been introduced for politics rather than science. But that concern seemed to quickly devolve into a broader anti-vaccination commentary that's rather concerning.

Thanks for speaking out, John.
Rachelo is offline  
post #27 of (permalink) Old 08-27-2012, 10:08 PM
Banned
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Chwk, , Canada.
Posts: 5,318
Default

Quote:
quote:Originally posted by Cherry Pirate

I'm trying to see what the opposition is other than some fringe fear-mongering that vaccines contain autism or whatever hogwash has become the pseudo-controversy of the day,
I just want 2 questions answered:

i) Who stands to gain the MOST from forced vaccination programs (and let's not be so naive as to say "the patients")?
ii) How do we know that there is even anything in that syringe that the government is paying for?

I have not had a flu shot in five years and I have not had the "flu" (per se) during that time.









TheShadow is offline  
post #28 of (permalink) Old 08-27-2012, 10:41 PM
Headed for the Mountains
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Maple Ridge, BC, Canada.
Posts: 393
Default

Quote:
quote:Originally posted by TheShadow
I just want 2 questions answered:

i) Who stands to gain the MOST from forced vaccination programs (and let's not be so naive as to say "the patients")?
ii) How do we know that there is even anything in that syringe that the government is paying for?

I have not had a flu shot in five years and I have not had the "flu" (per se) during that time.
At the risk of presumption, I think your questions are intentionally coy or, rather, phrased as questions disingenuously. You have built your rather unfounded assumptions about the nature of drug companies into them. I am fully and intimately aware of certain abuses in the pharmaceutical business. I had professors that had been through their mill and told me stories. But the idea that they make some large profit off vaccines is just plain false. Vaccines, even seasonal ones, hardly bring in money at all. They make their money off daily medications, and recombinations off two open-patent drugs into a new patented one. That is to say, of course the patients benefit the most.

Your second question is the very definition of the fallacy of conspiratorial assumptions. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, for sure, but that cuts both ways. You can't just build your own story out of perceived gaps. How do I know my car isn't sentient? Sometimes it seems like it just stalls to piss me off.

Finally, the last point is a completely selfish view of the purpose of this kind of vaccination program. As has been said many times in this short thread, we carry the virus if we get contaminated whether it proliferates to the point of causing sickness or not. You can transfer a virus without ever knowing you had it. A vaccination decreases this likelihood.
Cherry Pirate is offline  
post #29 of (permalink) Old 08-27-2012, 11:38 PM Thread Starter
High on the Mountain Top
 
Kid Charlemagne's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: BC
Posts: 1,486
Default

Concerns about the policy are being unfairly categorized as 'anti-vaccine'. I had no issues getting a whole slew of vaccines prior to traveling, because I understood the purpose and function. While vaccines for polio, mumps, measles, rubella, heps, etc., have clearly demonstrated their efficacy, I don't believe the flu vaccine has. This thread is about the flu vaccine, and frankly, the other vaccines are irrelevant to this conversation.

Another issue is health of workers in general. Many sectors of health care are grossly understaffed, with workers working shift (un)patterns and enough OT that it can undermine the best efforts to maintain a healthy immune system. Increased staffing levels, and fitness incentives would have a more meaningful effect on preventing the spread of flu.

The reason the shot is being made mandatory is because all fields of health care have thus far had low compliance with voluntary immunization. These are all people with varying levels of medical knowledge beyond the layman, so i wouldn't be so quick to dismiss their practices.

Where I work, 2 or 3 of 25 workers got it at the voluntary clinic last year, and those that have indicated they won't get it now that its mandatory include paramedics, nurses, lab techs, and MD students. This is based on first hand conversations I've had in the last few days. Dismiss them and the thousands of others as 'anti vaccine' if that's easier than trying to understand their views.
Kid Charlemagne is offline  
post #30 of (permalink) Old 08-27-2012, 11:49 PM
Headed for the Mountains
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Maple Ridge, BC, Canada.
Posts: 393
Default

Quote:
quote:Originally posted by Kid Charlemagne

While vaccines for polio, mumps, measles, rubella, heps, etc., have clearly demonstrated their efficacy, I don't believe the flu vaccine has. This thread is about the flu vaccine, and frankly, the other vaccines are irrelevant to this conversation.
It's a mixed bag of data, for sure. But there is evidence that certain subsets of the population do reduce their contamination risk with it. It's not so clear cut, no.

Quote:
quote:
Another issue is health of workers in general. Many sectors of health care are grossly understaffed, with workers working shift (un)patterns and enough OT that it can undermine the best efforts to maintain a healthy immune system. Increased staffing levels, and fitness incentives would have a more meaningful effect on preventing the spread of flu.
I can't help but feel this is as much a red herring as the other vaccines discussion you just condemned. I can agree with this and flu vaccination approaches simultaneously without discrediting one or the other..

Quote:
quote:
The reason the shot is being made mandatory is because all fields of health care have thus far had low compliance with voluntary immunization. These are all people with varying levels of medical knowledge beyond the layman, so i wouldn't be so quick to dismiss their practices.

Where I work, 2 or 3 of 25 workers got it at the voluntary clinic last year, and those that have indicated they won't get it now that its mandatory include paramedics, nurses, lab techs, and MD students. This is based on first hand conversations I've had in the last few days. Dismiss them and the thousands of others as 'anti vaccine' if that's easier than trying to understand their views.
Well, a cursory reading of that tells me there's a set of people that will no longer take a step they once thought wise simply because others are told its wise. I don't know that it's a complex view to understand. People don't like to be told what to do, but as you know, many didn't take part in the voluntary part. If you take the view that it's a wise action that saves lives, as the bureaucracy that is implementing it does, then what other action remains? You make it available for free and put up posters and seminars for years encouraging it. The soft hand fails. You either give up or become more strenuous, I don't see many options for them.
Cherry Pirate is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page



Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome
 

Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.1