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post #16 of (permalink) Old 05-01-2018, 03:23 AM
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"The reality is that the world will demand more oil over the coming years, and it can either be supplied by countries that actually care about and enforce environmental, health, safety and labour standards, or countries that don't. Would we rather those dollars go to Venezuela, Nigeria, Saudi Arabia, or Canada? If we desire to displace less ethically produced oil products, we need to bring them to market, and the safest way to do that is via pipeline."

He did here.
It seems to me that the only thing Canada will accomplish is increase the overall supply, which will slightly depress prices, and thus increase demand. All the available oil in the market will still be sold at market prices. Venezuelan oil will still be sold. Saudi Arabian oil will still be sold. What mechanism do you think will be stopping these countries from selling their oil?
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post #17 of (permalink) Old 05-01-2018, 04:42 PM
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It seems to me that the only thing Canada will accomplish is increase the overall supply, which will slightly depress prices, and thus increase demand. All the available oil in the market will still be sold at market prices. Venezuelan oil will still be sold. Saudi Arabian oil will still be sold. What mechanism do you think will be stopping these countries from selling their oil?

Demand for oil is finite, and while elastic, it is not infinitely so. Hence the fact that there are close to 3 billion barrels of oil in inventory globally. Expanding our capacity displaces oil sold by other nations. There are questions of logistics, shipping oil to China from Canada is shorter than from Venesuala or Niger for example. Lastly Canada's political stability, adherence to rule of law and reliable infrastructure make it a more favorable partner when it comes to establishing long term supply contracts (A Chinese refinery knows the oil with show up when it's contracted to without fear of a revolution, nationalization, or substantial breakdown in infrastructure).
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post #18 of (permalink) Old 05-01-2018, 08:26 PM
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Could you elaborate on this? I keep hearing this kind of assertion but it`s never explained.
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Demand for oil is finite, and while elastic, it is not infinitely so. Hence the fact that there are close to 3 billion barrels of oil in inventory globally. Expanding our capacity displaces oil sold by other nations. There are questions of logistics, shipping oil to China from Canada is shorter than from Venesuala or Niger for example. Lastly Canada's political stability, adherence to rule of law and reliable infrastructure make it a more favorable partner when it comes to establishing long term supply contracts (A Chinese refinery knows the oil with show up when it's contracted to without fear of a revolution, nationalization, or substantial breakdown in infrastructure).
Beat me to it. I think what protestors fail to grasp, with their ironically plastic signs, is this will go ahead one way or the other I suspect. Any evaluation of Horgan's doings is hypocritical at best. This would be a non-issue from a political stand point if the NDP didn't owe the government to that of Weaver's good graces.
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post #19 of (permalink) Old 05-01-2018, 11:49 PM Thread Starter
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As a consumer, I want lower gas prices. There is no evidence that twinning the KM pipeline will reduce prices at the pump. Lots of factors go into gas prices, but how much oil gets shipped from AB to the BC coast is of little significance, unless it's accompanied by more Canadian refineries who can supply our fuel needs.

As a citizen, I respect the right to peaceful protest, including non-violent acts of civil disobedience. I respect our democracy and the right of minority governments to fulfill their mandates.

As a Canadian, I want to be energy self-sufficient. The resources are there, but I realize the infrastructure has a long way to go, especially with supplying oil to central and eastern Canada, where most of Canada's imports go.

I want to be seen as a leader, an innovator, and a progressive nation that looks to the future and is committed to reduce the disastrous effects of climate change and pollution. I can't control how other regimes treat their people or resources, but I have a say in how we treat ours.

I want investors who share my values and respect our environment, and who want to add to the trend toward clean energy. I want them to employ Canadians in careers that look ahead, and not to the past.

I want to be un-beholden to foreign owned corporations who only have their bottom line in mind, and who care little about the devastation of Canadian wild spaces and ecosystems, and who can threaten our governments with lawsuits if we interfere with their ability to profit from our resources.

As a British Columbian, I want to be able to decide what's in our best interest. The KM expansion will not produce long-term jobs for BC'ians. It threatens our coastline and is a risk that doesn't match the rewards. Yes, pipes may be safer than rails, but a quick search reveals how many spills (mostly unreported in the media) occur frequently, including from the KM current pipeline, and those results are not encouraging.

As an outdoor enthusiast, I obviously want to enjoy clean spaces. I want my kids to be able to as well. I want them to be proud of their country and community, and proud of me, since they will be inheriting our mess.

Finally, as a hockey fan, I want the Jets to win the Stanley Cup, but that might just be a pipe dream.
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post #20 of (permalink) Old 05-02-2018, 02:37 PM
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As a consumer, I want lower gas prices. There is no evidence that twinning the KM pipeline will reduce prices at the pump.
The ONLY thing that determines the price at the pump, is how badly the oil companies want to gouge us. We have demonstrated repeatedly that regardless of how high the price goes....we will continue to buy it.
If I were in their shoes, why would I willingly lower my profit?
A pipeline won't affect the cost, so that is a red-herring in the argument.

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I want to be seen as a leader, an innovator, and a progressive nation that looks to the future and is committed to reduce the disastrous effects of climate change and pollution. I can't control how other regimes treat their people or resources, but I have a say in how we treat ours.
Noble, for sure...but the phrase "a drop in the bucket" comes into play.
Here in BC, we represent less than 1% of the world's population, so what we do has little effect, in respect to the big picture. Much like paying a "carbon tax" on my fuel, while we ship coal to China and India....who represent a much bigger piece of the global pie.
The $100 or so of carbon tax that I pay per year will amount to nothing.

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The KM expansion will not produce long-term jobs for BC'ians. It threatens our coastline and is a risk that doesn't match the rewards.
The coast will still be threatened if the oil is pipe to Alaska and super-tanker'ed to Asia....

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Finally, as a hockey fan, I want the Jets to win the Stanley Cup, but that might just be a pipe dream.
We can agree on that....and it's NOT a pipe dream. After watching them rebound from a 3-0 deficit to win 7 - 4 last night...I believe!
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post #21 of (permalink) Old 05-02-2018, 03:31 PM
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Noble, for sure...but the phrase "a drop in the bucket" comes into play.
Here in BC, we represent less than 1% of the world's population, so what we do has little effect, in respect to the big picture. Much like paying a "carbon tax" on my fuel, while we ship coal to China and India....who represent a much bigger piece of the global pie.
The $100 or so of carbon tax that I pay per year will amount to nothing.
That's a quite common opinion I assume. It's just me in such a big country... only because you are so lucky to be part of a smaller nation doesn't mean you shouldn't consider that your lifestyle is the problem. It's quite easy to say other people first, not me. But I'm glad you think 100 Dollars carbon tax is not much, no problem to pay this. ;-) (why do countries like China or India have increasing pollution rates - they produce for you, they take your garbage and: they want the lifestyle you represent)
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post #22 of (permalink) Old 05-02-2018, 06:45 PM
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In BC, your cost of fuel is that of the cost of oil, plus:

-7.78 cents/L for the carbon tax which was supposed to be a revenue neutral tax until Horgan reversed that decision with the recent April 1st increase
-6.75 cents/L for the B.C. Transportation Financing Authority fuel tax
-1.75 cents/L for the general B.C. Motor Fuel Tax
-17 cents/L for the TransLink fuel tax (GVRD only)
-10 cents/L for the the federal fuel excise tax

Only then do you pay another 5% of the cost of fuel plus the above taxes. Taxes on taxes. Have to love it.

How many years has it been since David Black first attempted to develop a refinery here in BC? Six? Now, on top of it, Horgan is reaching out to Washington State to expand their refinery operations to handle more of the 22 million barrels of oil we export each year. The same refined fuel we buy back at inflated prices. Those 22 million barrels, which, by the way, already go to market via the existing pipeline. Funny how they're okay with that while touting concerns for BC's coast, etc. to keep the Greens happy out of fear they'll pull the plug on this government.
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post #23 of (permalink) Old 05-02-2018, 07:53 PM
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But I'm glad you think 100 Dollars carbon tax is not much, no problem to pay this. ;-)
I wouldn't mind it so much, if it actually accomplished anything in el photo grande....but as I say, having ME fork over $100/yr, and thinking that it is "saving the planet" is pure bull$hit...I'd rather they just call it what it is....ANOTHER tax.
...and it isn't complacency, it's a FACT. My original quote was off by a bit, we in BC represent .06 % of the world's population....thinking that charging me an extra tax (above and beyond the others) will do ANYTHING to combat Global warming, or climate change or whatever it is being called today, while Asia (57% of the world's population) imports our coal and oil....is pollyanna.

Last edited by TheShadow; 05-02-2018 at 07:57 PM.
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post #24 of (permalink) Old 05-03-2018, 02:07 AM
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The ONLY thing that determines the price at the pump, is how badly the oil companies want to gouge us.
I can't find the article right now, but it has already been determined that BC will be getting higher gas prices to subsidize the cost of the pipeline, at about $100million a year, for crude that is going to other markets.
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post #25 of (permalink) Old 05-03-2018, 06:58 PM
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I can't find the article right now, but it has already been determined that BC will be getting higher gas prices to subsidize the cost of the pipeline, at about $100million a year, for crude that is going to other markets.

Determined by who? All I've seen are articles from anti-pipeline advocates that it will increase gasoline costs, and pro-pipeline advocates that it will reduce them. Just like the jobs argument, those against the pipeline will seek to minimize any benefits and maximize any risks, while those in favor will seek to maximize the benefits and minimize the risks. The reality will end up somewhere in between.
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post #26 of (permalink) Old 05-03-2018, 10:04 PM
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Found it.
https://www.nationalobserver.com/201...0-million-year
Determined by Kinder Morgan themselves.
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post #27 of (permalink) Old 05-03-2018, 10:04 PM Thread Starter
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^^Haha... Maybe you should read sources with less bias.

Seriously though, Kelly and others, lay out the benefits for British Columbians? Recent polls are showing a small majority of Canadians supporting, but what arguments are most convincing to these people? I'm genuinely interested in hearing non-partisan arguments based on economics and environment from supporters.

I suspect people are buying into the "national interest" bit. That could use explaining too.

Shadow, a few posts ago you admitted the oil companies "gouge" us. Why then would you want Canada to continue to do business with them when there's other options for investment. I'm a slave to fuel like everyone else, but as much as possible if I think a business is screwing me I'll go elsewhere.

Last edited by Candy Sack; 05-03-2018 at 10:09 PM.
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post #28 of (permalink) Old 05-04-2018, 12:16 AM
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Shadow, a few posts ago you admitted the oil companies "gouge" us. Why then would you want Canada to continue to do business with them when there's other options for investment. I'm a slave to fuel like everyone else, but as much as possible if I think a business is screwing me I'll go elsewhere.
Really...and where will you go to buy your gasoline?
Collusion in the market is no secret, although none of them will admit to it and government will do NOTHING about it, as it is a primary revenue stream for them.
My favorite "excuse" for rising gas prices is when they use the old "tension in the Middle East" BS....has there ever been a time when there is no tension in the Middle East?

So yeah, you can stop buying your gas at Shell and go to Husky instead....or Chevron.....let us know how much you're saving!
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post #29 of (permalink) Old 05-04-2018, 12:29 AM Thread Starter
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Ya you didn't answer the question. What I hear you saying is "keep screwing me because there's nothing I can do." Is that the best argument KM supporters have?
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post #30 of (permalink) Old 05-04-2018, 01:16 AM
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^^Haha... Maybe you should read sources with less bias.
One can't always pick, but as far as facts go, it is rated pretty high. This article is at least more informative than the common news sources, which seem to have gotten stuck on the BC vs Alberta loop and aren't actually contributing anything useful.

In short, Alberta wants the pipeline for the oil exports, BC is concerned about the environment, and I'm yet to be convinced Kinder Morgan is all that concerned about the environment and is happy to let Alberta do their work for them and BC take the fall for Kinder's mismanagement. Seriously, I feel the smarter move for Alberta would have been to assist and/or push Kinder Morgan to take the environmental factor more seriously, but everyone seems happy to stick to their hill to die on. Maybe no pipeline isn't the way to go, but forcing it through isn't either, and as long as Alberta/Trudeau keep to that stance they'll find no sympathy here.
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