I take back my objection to Kinder Morgan - Page 4 - ClubTread Community

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post #46 of (permalink) Old 11-26-2014, 10:01 PM
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I took part in today's protest on Burnaby Mountain. A great experience, and I urge everyone concerned about climate change in general and this project in particular to take half a day and stand up for what you believe in.

There is no "danger" other than the consequences should you choose to be arrested. Bring footwear suitable for mush and mud if you want to explore most of the site, which is more extensive than appears in the tv reports.

Today's protest included a group who worked together on the Clayoquot logging resistance 21 years ago. Their bonds and quality of character were evident. Entertainment was by an environmental choir, who were excellent. There were people representing First Nations, from Vancouver Island, and a church. Out of the 200 or so protesters, there were a couple of very intense young men obviously itching for trouble. Tzeporah Berman put one of them in his place. I think the other was arrested for breaking the tape line.

The assembly, the walk up the mountain and the arrests, while entertaining, more seriously had a feeling of something important going on. Because it is.

More information at:
https://www.facebook.com/BurnabyPipelineWatch

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post #47 of (permalink) Old 11-27-2014, 01:26 AM
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I'm concerned about climate change in general and curious about this project in particular.

I have a few questions for you:
Would you feel any different if this was a pipeline carrying conventional oil, knowing that the oil will be supplied from somewhere else if not here?

Do you think alternatives to fossil fuels will be developed before it is uneconomical and/or impossible to recover remaining oil?

I respect your opinion.
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post #48 of (permalink) Old 11-27-2014, 07:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seasider View Post
I'm concerned about climate change in general and curious about this project in particular.

I have a few questions for you:
Would you feel any different if this was a pipeline carrying conventional oil, knowing that the oil will be supplied from somewhere else if not here?

Do you think alternatives to fossil fuels will be developed before it is uneconomical and/or impossible to recover remaining oil?

I respect your opinion.
I gather from the company's website that this project is intended to carry various oil products, probably including conventional oil.

From http://www.transmountain.com/project...FYOUfgodjUoANg
  • Existing line to carry refined products, synthetic crude oils, light crude oils with capability for heavy crude oils
  • Proposed new line to carry heavier oils with capability for transporting light crude oil.
This told me how easily we can be mistaken about these things. I thought the KM project was a southern version of Northern Gateway. It appears it is very different. A few days ago I sent an email to KM asking how the diluent in the dilbit they'd be pumping west through their project would get back to Alberta. I haven't had an answer yet.

NG, on the other hand, is one large pipe to carry diluted bitumen (dilbit) west and a smaller pipe to carry the diluent (removed offshore) back to Alberta for re-use.

I'd be less concerned if the dilbit were replaced, somehow, with more conventional oil. But it's only a difference of degree. Any resources directed to oil projects divert capital etc. from cleaner sources and energy efficiency.

As for the second question, I appreciate the wording showing that you are not part of the camp of simpletons who think protesters want to suddenly completely shut off the oil tap and freeze in the dark because alternatives can't pick up the slack.

There has to be a shift, as far and as fast as we can do it without genuine human suffering. We are no where near that rate of change. Allowing these projects just digs us a deeper hole to get out of or suffer from later.

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post #49 of (permalink) Old 11-27-2014, 07:16 PM
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Today's news is that a judge agreed that Kinder Morgan was incorrect in specifying the gps coordinates of where they wanted protesters excluded. This means the civil injunction is invalid. All the basic charges of violating the injunction have been dismissed. KM also was denied their request to extend the duration of the injunction, with corrected locations.

So if KM can't get something as simple as a few gps coordinates correct, what does this say about their claim they can manage something somewhat more complex such as spill risks, to essentially zero?

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post #50 of (permalink) Old 11-28-2014, 05:58 PM
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“Prior to this all beginning, Kinder Morgan went to the National Energy Board and said ‘we need to get additional money in order to do this application.’”

“The National Energy Board awarded them $135 million as a surcharge on oil to be paid by consumers and non-taxable for them to build a war chest in order for them to be able to implement this application.”

http://www.vancouverobserver.com/new...peech?page=0,1
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post #51 of (permalink) Old 11-29-2014, 03:10 AM
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Originally Posted by HT View Post
“Prior to this all beginning, Kinder Morgan went to the National Energy Board and said ‘we need to get additional money in order to do this application.’”

“The National Energy Board awarded them $135 million as a surcharge on oil to be paid by consumers and non-taxable for them to build a war chest in order for them to be able to implement this application.”

http://www.vancouverobserver.com/new...peech?page=0,1
Not surprising. While the public sees the NEB as a powerful but neutral "court", it's populated by oil interests appointed by the Harper government. It has a very interesting history.

http://thetyee.ca/Opinion/2011/06/17/NEB/

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post #52 of (permalink) Old 11-29-2014, 02:39 PM
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The drawback to our current political environment is politicians wish to remain in power and will not say no to money being dropped around them. We the serfs of their kingdom who wish to have a clean environment to live and prosper in are subject to the whims of special interest groups who have their own ideas of the utopia we need. So EVERY government we elect regardless of name or stripe has their own ideas of what we need. We do not have much say in the matter. NEB is a fine board of upstanding people who listen to everyone to make an informed decision , however the decision seems to be based on what they are told by the reigning government body. KM's existing pipeline is close to 60 years old. Will be interesting to see what happens when it springs a leak one of these days. Will upper management disregard the warning lights and press restart?
Regarding alternative energy systems our Emperor Christy wants to have Site C developed at 8 billion bucks whereas the Geothermal group has stated that they can get the same amount of power potential from the hot stuff below our feet for a mere 3.5 billion. Not a peep from our Emperor about alternative energy plans. I guess she knows better than her serfs. Strangely enough of all the political parties in Canada we still do not have any initiative from any of them to fund exploration into a cleaner energy plan. Oil makes money, politicians like to be politicians and enjoy money, what more is there to say as to the loyalties of politicians towards a cleaner environment.
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post #53 of (permalink) Old 12-01-2014, 03:19 PM
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Originally Posted by brucew View Post
The drawback to our current political environment is politicians wish to remain in power and will not say no to money being dropped around them. We the serfs of their kingdom who wish to have a clean environment to live and prosper in are subject to the whims of special interest groups who have their own ideas of the utopia we need. So EVERY government we elect regardless of name or stripe has their own ideas of what we need. We do not have much say in the matter. NEB is a fine board of upstanding people who listen to everyone to make an informed decision , however the decision seems to be based on what they are told by the reigning government body. KM's existing pipeline is close to 60 years old. Will be interesting to see what happens when it springs a leak one of these days. Will upper management disregard the warning lights and press restart?
Regarding alternative energy systems our Emperor Christy wants to have Site C developed at 8 billion bucks whereas the Geothermal group has stated that they can get the same amount of power potential from the hot stuff below our feet for a mere 3.5 billion. Not a peep from our Emperor about alternative energy plans. I guess she knows better than her serfs. Strangely enough of all the political parties in Canada we still do not have any initiative from any of them to fund exploration into a cleaner energy plan. Oil makes money, politicians like to be politicians and enjoy money, what more is there to say as to the loyalties of politicians towards a cleaner environment.
While I agree with most of your thoughtful post, I have to disagree that the NEB is a "fine" board that listens to everyone.

From:
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/new-br...oned-1.2824507

"Andrew Nikiforuk, an author and journalist who has written extensively about the NEB and its rulings, said most board members are lawyers or engineers with ties to the oil and gas industry.

“But there's no public health expert. There is no expert in environmental assessment, there is no pipeline safety expert, there is no representative from First Nations, there's no representative or expert from fisheries, no oil spill or contaminant expert," he said.

"It's a very striking board, it's a board of white people, mostly Conservatives, all based in Calgary, all with very similar backgrounds, whose job is largely to facilitate the pipeline approval in the country.”"


As far as "listening to everyone", those allowed to take part in the NEB hearings, at least on pipelines, have been severely restricted to those with direct interests. With "direct" being defined by the NEB. Even "listening" to the chosen isn't much good if cross-examination is not allowed and the NEB doesn't respond to most questions.

Earlier in this discussion the resignation from the review, of Marc Eliesen was mentioned. He called the NEB review process a sham.

There are tons of similar concerns about the NEB in general, oil projects, and the Kinder Morgan application in particular.
https://www.wildernesscommittee.org/...alf_applicants

Consider this:
http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2014/11...n_6108628.html
"But if the NEB has become a captive of the industry, it has done so with the help of federal government policy. Since it took power in 2006, the Harper government has stacked the NEB with industry insiders to the exclusion of almost anyone else.

At the same time, the government shifted the regulatory framework to essentially make the NEB a one-stop shop for energy project approval. In 2010 they placed the NEB in charge of environmental assessments for energy projects. Those had previously been done by joint panels appointed by the environment minister."

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post #54 of (permalink) Old 12-01-2014, 09:30 PM
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"NEB is a fine board of upstanding people who listen to everyone to make an informed decision , however the decision seems to be based on what they are told by the reigning government body."

That is the everyone I was referring to.
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post #55 of (permalink) Old 12-02-2014, 12:33 AM
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Just a bit of comic relief: The pop-up ad for this post was for an oil-change deal from a international auto manufacturer...
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post #56 of (permalink) Old 12-02-2014, 02:02 PM
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During peak driving season in the summer time, Canada imports oil for it's domestic consumers, from the US and Europe. The Trans-Mountain pipeline is over-subscribed. Is importing oil from the US really more desirable than expanding the pipeline?
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post #57 of (permalink) Old 12-15-2014, 12:22 AM
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There is a reason no one takes you seriously KC. Half the time you cant even remember where you stand from one month to the next

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kid Charlemagne View Post
I'm going to be very clear here about my beliefs. I'm against doubling the Trans-Mountain, and it has nothing to do with what they intend to do with the extra capacity. I simply think that we use entirely too much oil, and should look at reducing dependence instead of increasing capacity.

The other half of the time your posting ridiculously outrageous comments that identify clearly the lack of thought you put into them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kid Charlemagne View Post
As for the Northern Gateway, I think the economics justify the risk to the environment, and that includes accepting that there will probably be events like spills.
Seroiusly, with supporters like you who needs protestors willing to be arrested? Environmentalists should just purchase you your own radio show and let you blather on.

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post #58 of (permalink) Old 12-16-2014, 07:42 PM
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Monster, the difference between you and me is that I'm not under the illusion (delusion) that my beliefs should direct how the majority live their lives. And what I've said isn't mutually exclusive.

My personal belief is that expanding the Trans-Mountain is less desirable than reducing consumption. If I was in charge, it wouldn't be expanded. I have reduced my consumption; my daily commute hasn't been more than 3 minutes for the last 4 years, and I've had to move across the province a few times to maintain that. My family has gone from 2 cars used daily to 1 car that sits parked for most of the week.

The majority of British Columbia's voters obviously enjoy using more oil than I do. If they're going to insist on doing that, I think it's better that they twin the pipeline rather than import from the US. I'm not going to whine and cry because they don't share my opinion.
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