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post #1 of (permalink) Old 10-29-2012, 07:28 AM Thread Starter
High on the Mountain Top
 
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Default Logging behind Alice Lake

It looks some logging behind Alice Lake (up by the powerlines) has destroyed a few good biking trails. It probably happened in the last year or so and I'm not sure about the extent of the damage. I understand that the specific area that was logged is not a park but it's still a shame because it is such a great network of trails. I wonder if anyone sat down to do the math to figure out if the economic value of those sections of forest would be higher from recurring recreational activity or from logging.

For one trail, a long section of boardwalk has been built to salvage the connection between points A and B. It looks like one or more other tails may be missing completely.


On a related note: Don't try to bike around Brohm Lake. Way too many slippery stairs.

Some other pics from the day:


Upside down:


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post #2 of (permalink) Old 10-29-2012, 09:32 AM
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Actually that trail has not changed a bit, that boardwalk was built long ago to deal with the swamp the trail goes through. The logging in that area is minimal impact and actually will improve the trails in that area, yes it looks like a mess now however in a few years when the small foliage grows back it will be wicked and guess what they won't be back for 60-100 years. Logging is something that BC has and creates jobs. Guess how your house was made as well as the paper you wipe your butt with.

The funny thing is years ago everyone protested the cutting of the plunge. They left a 100 foot swath around the pluge which is now probably the worst trail in squamish that very few people ride. If they logged it completely, the trail would have been restored and improved upon. One thing many people don't realize is that many trail builders don't walk every line in the forest and when your building you can't always see the best line or a cool feature, after logging you can and build a better more sustainable trail. Trails that have been sectioned 57 also are restored by logging companies, so we don't lose trails.

Happy Riding!
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post #3 of (permalink) Old 10-29-2012, 09:45 AM Thread Starter
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quote:Originally posted by norona

Actually that trail has not changed a bit, that boardwalk was built long ago to deal with the swamp the trail goes through. The logging in that area is minimal impact and actually will improve the trails in that area, yes it looks like a mess now however in a few years when the small foliage grows back it will be wicked and guess what they won't be back for 60-100 years. Logging is something that BC has and creates jobs. Guess how your house was made as well as the paper you wipe your butt with.

The funny thing is years ago everyone protested the cutting of the plunge. They left a 100 foot swath around the pluge which is now probably the worst trail in squamish that very few people ride. If they logged it completely, the trail would have been restored and improved upon. One thing many people don't realize is that many trail builders don't walk every line in the forest and when your building you can't always see the best line or a cool feature, after logging you can and build a better more sustainable trail. Trails that have been sectioned 57 also are restored by logging companies, so we don't lose trails.

Happy Riding!
Hi Norona,

Good info. I certainly don't have anything against logging when it's done right. Wood is the only sustainable and renewable building material. I didn't check the maps very carefully but aren't one or more trails gone now? What about "Don't tell Jude"?
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post #4 of (permalink) Old 10-29-2012, 10:26 AM
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Your right don't tell jude is mostly gone but it will be resurrected and although I loved that trail many people never rode it due to the roots and also the week wood work that was done on it....

It is weird though like you say to ride there now since it looks so different with those lovely trees gone...they will be back though, happy riding and also great photos...BC Bike Race went through there and we were there on thursday on our trials bikes, you might have seen our prints...
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post #5 of (permalink) Old 10-29-2012, 07:42 PM
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Try communicating your concern to the forest company (there aren't too many in Squamish so it so it should be pretty easy to figure out) that did the logging to let them know the logging negatively impacted the trail. In the future they may be better able to accommodate them if you bring your concerns to them and they know it is an issue.

The forest company I work for in Kamloops is usually more than happy to buffer off trails or at least clean debris off it after logging. The cost of doing this is usually next to nothing, and benefits everyone involved.

You may get better results by letting the forest company know than by complaining online...
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post #6 of (permalink) Old 10-29-2012, 07:52 PM
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Look at woodlot. No reason that loggers and bikes can't get along.

Pretty much the entire North Shore, Eagle, Burke, etc was clear cut in the early 1900's.
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post #7 of (permalink) Old 10-29-2012, 08:33 PM Thread Starter
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quote:Originally posted by salbrecher

Try communicating your concern to the forest company (there aren't too many in Squamish so it so it should be pretty easy to figure out) that did the logging to let them know the logging negatively impacted the trail. In the future they may be better able to accommodate them if you bring your concerns to them and they know it is an issue.

The forest company I work for in Kamloops is usually more than happy to buffer off trails or at least clean debris off it after logging. The cost of doing this is usually next to nothing, and benefits everyone involved.

You may get better results by letting the forest company know than by complaining online...
That is good advice. There is a very active mountain biking community in Squamish. They do a lot of volunteer work to build great trails and I am sure that they were in communication with the logging company. For all I know, there may have even been some great agreement where more important trails were saved (or even created,) in return for logging this one patch.

My post was just a rambling commentary from a guy who visits the area about once/year. I was surprised to see the changes so I posted.
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post #8 of (permalink) Old 10-29-2012, 09:34 PM
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A nice burn for me in Squamish is to head down Jacks trail to Alice Lake then up behind the lakes and down Rob and Cliffs corners, then onto Rollercoaster and back down into the Highlands.

Back in June the picture above is what the area next to Cliffs corners looked like. It used to be nice shaded forest.

I went back a few times after this and the whole area was getting worse. The logging wasn't even on the trail, but the loggers were placing the logs across the track and at the entrances as well as taping the entrances to deter bikers from coming close.

The last time I went the whole place was a mess, requiring me to mostly bike the FSR and then get off and carry my bike over the brush piles.

I'm not complaining though. It's not like this is the only place in Squamish to bike it just happened to be the closest loop to where I live.

As Dave said, it will probably mean better trails in the long run though.
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post #9 of (permalink) Old 10-30-2012, 05:53 AM
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Quote:
quote:Originally posted by Steventy

I wonder if anyone sat down to do the math to figure out if the economic value of those sections of forest would be higher from recurring recreational activity or from logging.
I wonder what economic value would be lost from the Outdoor Recreation Capital of Canada if no logging roads had ever been built...
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post #10 of (permalink) Old 10-30-2012, 08:31 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
quote:Originally posted by salbrecher

Quote:
quote:Originally posted by Steventy

I wonder if anyone sat down to do the math to figure out if the economic value of those sections of forest would be higher from recurring recreational activity or from logging.
I wonder what economic value would be lost from the Outdoor Recreation Capital of Canada if no logging roads had ever been built...
Yep, it's a funny relationship between industrial and recreational users sometimes.

When I asked the question, I asked it honestly. I have no idea what an acre of land is worth to the economy when it is used for logging and I have no idea how much money is brought into Squamish through mountain biking.

Different parcels of land provide different amounts of value for each type of activity and the right answer is clearly somewhere in the middle. It wouldn't make sense to turn the entire province into a park and it wouldn't make sense to log the entire province either. When you have a small plot of land that borders a provincial park and is heavily used by mountain bikers, perhaps it would have made more economic sense for society to save that area and give the logging company a new patch of land to log that has less recreational value.

It's a fair question to ask.
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post #11 of (permalink) Old 10-30-2012, 09:13 AM
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The provincial government gets stumpage based on a price per cubic meter, so if you have say, a 24 hectare block with 12,000 cubic meters of wood on it the total value of the timber might be a million bucks and the provincial government might take, say, $30,000 as stumpage. Of course it depends on the species and location and stuff. Those numbers are just a rough guess.
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post #12 of (permalink) Old 10-30-2012, 02:16 PM
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Leimrod the reason the trails were blocked off as wel as signs posted and mentioned on SORCA sites and everywhere really was that when they are logging they do not want anyone around, the reason is that they are cutting huge trees and working with equipment that can kill someone very quickly and easily.

It is also important that loggers bit on cut blocks around squamish, so you can imagine when they do they look at the whole plot and figure out how much it will be worth to them. Imagine when they do and bit and buy, they have 5 years to cut, if they wait more than that they get penalties. So imagine if you bought a cut block then arrive to find mountain bikers have built illegally in your area and now they are going to the local papers and people to tell you not to cut the land you purchased a cutting permit for.

This is what happened with the plunge, the logger caved cause he did not want to be the bad guy! This sucks for loggers when they purchase areas. In the case of the plunge it is not the worse trail in squamish since it was not cut but the roads used to cut around it then were to build better tails like Hoods in the Woods.

This is why trail builders must get section 57's now before they build so these issuse won't happen. However there are a few builders, Jim Harvey, Gary McFarlane to mention a few who are still building without a section 57 because they don't feel these issue's are valid for them. They have built some amazing trails, which I think is great however what they are doing is causing more harm than good.

We recently found a trail where a builder who just moved from Pemberton to Squamish is building a trail and has cut 46 or more cedars to build a massive jump...I was blown away at what this person had done and was actually the first time i felt sickend that some feels it is their right to go cut trees with out a permit for mtb trails. This is about 500m from houses too so not far from people....

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post #13 of (permalink) Old 10-30-2012, 03:42 PM
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Quote:
quote:Originally posted by Steventy

Quote:
quote:Originally posted by salbrecher

Quote:
quote:Originally posted by Steventy

I wonder if anyone sat down to do the math to figure out if the economic value of those sections of forest would be higher from recurring recreational activity or from logging.
I wonder what economic value would be lost from the Outdoor Recreation Capital of Canada if no logging roads had ever been built...
Yep, it's a funny relationship between industrial and recreational users sometimes.

When I asked the question, I asked it honestly. I have no idea what an acre of land is worth to the economy when it is used for logging and I have no idea how much money is brought into Squamish through mountain biking.

Different parcels of land provide different amounts of value for each type of activity and the right answer is clearly somewhere in the middle. It wouldn't make sense to turn the entire province into a park and it wouldn't make sense to log the entire province either. When you have a small plot of land that borders a provincial park and is heavily used by mountain bikers, perhaps it would have made more economic sense for society to save that area and give the logging company a new patch of land to log that has less recreational value.

It's a fair question to ask.
Do you think bikers are prevented from taking up the sport, quitting the sport, or leaving Squamish (to go somewhere that has no logging?) as a result of the logging (leading to loss of revenue from recreation) or are they more likely, in my opinion, shifting to riding in other local areas resulting in no lost revenue?
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post #14 of (permalink) Old 10-30-2012, 05:02 PM
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Quote:
quote:Originally posted by Steventy
Yep, it's a funny relationship between industrial and recreational users sometimes.

When I asked the question, I asked it honestly. I have no idea what an acre of land is worth to the economy when it is used for logging and I have no idea how much money is brought into Squamish through mountain biking.

Different parcels of land provide different amounts of value for each type of activity and the right answer is clearly somewhere in the middle. It wouldn't make sense to turn the entire province into a park and it wouldn't make sense to log the entire province either. When you have a small plot of land that borders a provincial park and is heavily used by mountain bikers, perhaps it would have made more economic sense for society to save that area and give the logging company a new patch of land to log that has less recreational value.

It's a fair question to ask.
Where it really gets interesting is when you try to factor in potential mineral value underneath a property. My department head while at BCIT was involved in this with the provincial gov't, and had a hard time explaining that unlike with logging, you can't just do a quick survey of an area and determine it's value when it comes to minerals.
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post #15 of (permalink) Old 10-31-2012, 02:51 PM
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Exactly what revenue does mountain biking bring in? If you're not selling lift tickets like Whistler then what.. a few powerbars here & there, a hotel stay?
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