First Multi Day Pack (70-80L) need advice! - Page 3 - ClubTread Community

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post #31 of (permalink) Old 04-01-2015, 12:18 PM
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Originally Posted by FamilyGuy View Post
On a personal note, for 3 season a 50 litre pack works for me with an ultralight load. For winter, I would probably step up to a 60L because of the additional insulation layers required.
I would say this kind of size isn't that abnormal, and shouldn't require too many compromises, as long as you're not carrying mountaineering gear.
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post #32 of (permalink) Old 04-01-2015, 01:05 PM
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I was checking this thread because Arnold's posting style entertains me, but now finding myself intrigued by UL.
Spectrum likes this.
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post #33 of (permalink) Old 04-01-2015, 02:18 PM
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I was checking this thread because Arnold's posting style entertains me, but now finding myself intrigued by UL.
Have a look at the aforementioned Andrew Skurka's The Ultimate Hiker Gear Guide. It is available at Indigo and is a great start for most.

Andrew is a remarkably accomplished long distance backpacker and the perspective that he provides in this book is very practical for anyone looking to drop some load.

Last edited by FamilyGuy; 04-01-2015 at 02:21 PM.
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post #34 of (permalink) Old 04-01-2015, 04:41 PM
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Thanks for the recommendation!
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post #35 of (permalink) Old 04-01-2015, 08:44 PM
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90% of my trips go into my 55L pack - and I rarely use all of the capacity. I've done 4 night winter camping ski trips with that pack including carrying a -40C bag, etc. The right gear and nothing unneeded is the key.

I do have a 75L pack I occasionally have to break out when things get ridiculous.

I would highly recommend the Arc Teryx Altra series of packs. My 75L is a superb pack. Carries huge loads when needed and at 2.2kg, isn't ridiculously heavy on it's own. My only grip is that the pivoting hip belt is awesome except when skiing - and yeah, I've tried locking it down but it just won't hold well enough. So, except for skiing with it on, it's a frickin' amazing pack. I've used it to porter 70lbs of food to a climbing hut and was shocked at how easily it carried that load.
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post #36 of (permalink) Old 04-02-2015, 01:39 AM
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My sleeping bag (rated to 4C) compresses down to just slightly larger than a Nalgene bottle and it isn't even down (which is more compressible).
Well, my 5C bag, which is a MEC down, doesn't. And any other more expensive bag I check, says it compresses down to about 4-8L. Maybe you could fit a t-shirt inside a 1L bottle, but I wouldn't want to sleep in a t-shirt alone.

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Including the solar charger its about 4-5 pounds (weighs almost as much as my tent)
Skip the solar charger. Just get extra batteries, it's about 75 grams each. Cheaper, smaller, lighter, and quicker to "recharge".
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post #37 of (permalink) Old 04-02-2015, 01:43 AM
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I pack ultralight and camp in extreme comfort. I don't believe the two are mutually exclusive.
A bigger tent lets you sleep more comfortably, place your stuff inside the tent, or have enough vestibule room under the fly. A stronger tent is more reliable and safer on a windy night. It also has a thicker fly and is more waterproof.

The above applies to almost anything else in your bag, including the bag itself.

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Arnold, my 3 season list of all gear including the pack for the Rockies is just under 10 lbs. This includes clothing for comfort to -7C and a fully enclosed, bug proof shelter system. I also include a change of underwear
Clothing for -7C to stay outside for hours in 1 spot? Or to hike in? That's a big difference. A thin down sweater will not do here. You'd need gloves, toe/hand warmers, hat, at least a couple good upper layers, etc.

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I eat about 1.8 pounds per day in food, of which at least half is dehydrated, and this is the only variable (apart from water) that changes between trips.

I have never starved on a trip, nor have I been hypothermic.
1.8 is fine. But then your bag is not 10 lbs anymore. I'm sure there are other things on the list that you decide to leave out just to make the numbers appear prettier.

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Edit: Regarding the sale, consider buying a digital one at Walmart for about $20. They are very accurate and you may be surprised at how much some things weigh as most manufacturer specifications are grossly inaccurate.
Right, I can't even afford a $20 scale. I bought it on sale for $10 years ago, and use it daily. All my gear is weighed and is in a spreadsheet. If I leave out food and photo gear, I'm around 20 lbs. Sure, I could shave off maybe 5 more pounds or more, but why bother? It's only 5 lbs total extra weight... and allows for more comfort. I like to sleep on a pillow at night and eat with a metal fork.

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Why so angry?
Is the cup half full or half empty?

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With respect to sleeping bags, thanks to 10d fabrics, differential cuts, and 850 plus down fill, we are now seeing sub 2 lb sleeping bags good to -10C (often EN rated - independently tested albeit not perfect but at least allows comparison between bags). If you go toward a quilt, you are looking at 1.5 lbs versions of this.
They still won't fit inside a Nalgene bottle. That's the whole reason why I recommended to go with a bigger bag. Plus, you could also use it on winter trips.
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post #38 of (permalink) Old 04-02-2015, 11:10 AM
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Hey Arnold.

Just a few comments. When I refer to a base weight of 10 lbs, I am referring to all of my gear, including the pack. As I mentioned earlier, the only variable is food and water which will vary by trip. But for an overnighter, a 13 lb total load is certainly possible. For example, last year on the West Coast Trail, my total pack weight with 1 litre of water was just under 20 lbs for 4 days. Your mileage may vary.

With respect to the down bag fitting into a Nalgene, I suspect the opening would be too small. Seriously though, yes, with the newer fabrics and higher rated down, you can get bags that will be comfortable to freezing that compress easily to the size of a Nalgene. Especially quilts. My Golite 20F rated quilt definitely compressed that small.

The -7C or so I am relating to is for sleeping / around camp. I can high in a lightweight merino top with a wind jacket on and pack, moving quickly in that temperature because I tend to overheat. There is a methodology to do with layers that is probably beyond the scope here but my clothing serves dual purposes.

I too like room! You can get sub 20 oz fully enclosed 2 person shelters now in Cuben Fiber. Certainly under 2 lbs in silnylon. The Tarptent Protrail that I have can actually fit two standard thermarests side by side but the tent is claimed as a 1 person. It is bigger than many so called 2 person shelters and still weighs 26 ounces with all pegs and guy lines.

As far as 5 lbs between friends, it does make a difference on long mileage days. 5 lbs is 2 L of water or about 3 days of food for me so it is significant for what I do. If one mostly camps then I would agree the ounces may not count as much as high mileage days are probably not on the menu.

Lighter weight loads, if possible, are also safer. Just ask any climber (assume the climber has all necessary gear).

Anyway, good discussion and I hope someone is getting something out of it.
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post #39 of (permalink) Old 04-02-2015, 11:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arnold View Post
Well, my 5C bag, which is a MEC down, doesn't. And any other more expensive bag I check, says it compresses down to about 4-8L. Maybe you could fit a t-shirt inside a 1L bottle, but I wouldn't want to sleep in a t-shirt alone.

Would you like me to take a picture? You seem to think everyone is lying to you. 4-8l is 1-2 milk jugs, I can tell you my bag is much, much smaller than that in it's compression sack. Besides we all know 90L bags suffer from death wobble (I kid, I kid)

Skip the solar charger. Just get extra batteries, it's about 75 grams each. Cheaper, smaller, lighter, and quicker to "recharge".[/QUOTE]


My panel weighs in at 150g and I also use it to charge my GPS. I've done the math and if I'm out for 4+ days, the panel is lighter
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post #40 of (permalink) Old 04-02-2015, 05:30 PM
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I try to balance luxury with light weight and think I've nailed it for me. I can handily fit a week-long summer backpack into a 50L pack and my starting weight with food/fuel etc would be ~25lbs for a hefty multi-day.

Am I equipped to sit outside at -10C for hours on end? Maybe not, and in the 300+ backpacking nights I've had in the last few years, that's never happened. I do have a -7C sleeping bag and a warm sleeping pad that I can certainly crawl into should I want to be warm and comfy. So, my down sweater does nicely.

The problem for many people when choosing the "one pack to do it all" is getting the right size. I have many packs that serve many missions - but my 55L is the one I use the most. For most people, I bet a 50-65L pack would suffice for pretty much everything they wanted to do.

I would look hard at the Osprey and Arc Teryx 60-65L packs - they can hold a lot, carry well, and are still light. Gregory makes nice packs too, as well as Deuter. We have some of all those brands in the house, and they're all good - go for fit.
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post #41 of (permalink) Old 04-02-2015, 07:08 PM
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Arnold: The inside of a nalgene bottle is 1 liter, the outside of nalgene bottle (inside + walls) is a fair bit larger than 1 liter, and the perceived size of a nalgene bottle is larger yet - maybe 3 liters or so. Try fitting 30 nalgene bottles into a 30L pack, it won't work.

So when people talk about something as being "the size of a nalgene bottle", they don't mean 1 liter (or if they do, they're a little confused).
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post #42 of (permalink) Old 04-05-2015, 06:55 PM
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Originally Posted by FamilyGuy View Post
With respect to the down bag fitting into a Nalgene, I suspect the opening would be too small. Seriously though, yes, with the newer fabrics and higher rated down, you can get bags that will be comfortable to freezing that compress easily to the size of a Nalgene. Especially quilts. My Golite 20F rated quilt definitely compressed that small.
Doesn't look to me this way:



That's at least 4-5 bottles. Some people are having hard time judging the real volume objectively. 4-5 L is as small as I've seen. It's definitely small, but not Nalgene small.

Then the reviewer says he was cold at -1C:

As none of my first few trips with the Ultra 20 made it below 35 F (2 C) I was very happy with it. I had it on a variety of pad combinations and all was good. Then I had a very cold night high in the Sierra Nevada where it hit 30 F (-1 C) at 11:00 pm and stayed there. My water froze and so did I.

http://www.backpackgeartest.org/revi...ay%20Estrella/

My experience with bags is that they're always about 5-10C too optimistic in their ratings. Sure, you can stuff yourself with extra clothes, but then it's extra bulk and weight you have to carry, not to mention these clothes can be dirty - I wouldn't want to put dirt inside a bag.

Quote:
I too like room! You can get sub 20 oz fully enclosed 2 person shelters now in Cuben Fiber. Certainly under 2 lbs in silnylon. The Tarptent Protrail that I have can actually fit two standard thermarests side by side but the tent is claimed as a 1 person. It is bigger than many so called 2 person shelters and still weighs 26 ounces with all pegs and guy lines.
Yes, it's light, but it's not as roomy as a Hubba Hubba. I think your tent will not withstand any sort of wind either. If you go real light, you will have to sacrifice size and durability.

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As far as 5 lbs between friends, it does make a difference on long mileage days.
You're forgetting you're getting more comfort and durability in return. On a multi day trip I'd be highly cautious about how safe my gear is, because weather can change quickly up there. What are you gonna do if winds and rain pick up, and you're 3+ days away from civilization?

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The -7C or so I am relating to is for sleeping / around camp.
Depends how long you stay out. If just enough to make quick dinner and go to bed, then I suppose it can be OK. But if I want to stay up for hours to take shots of the stars, or wait for proper sunset light, then I need more than that.

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Lighter weight loads, if possible, are also safer.
On the back, yes, but not in a storm or when you need to push your gear to the limits. On a hot, summer day, at low elevation in the trees, this is most likely not an issue. But most of my trips are somewhere in the alpine.
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post #43 of (permalink) Old 04-05-2015, 07:11 PM
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Arnold: The inside of a nalgene bottle is 1 liter, the outside of nalgene bottle (inside + walls) is a fair bit larger than 1 liter, and the perceived size of a nalgene bottle is larger yet - maybe 3 liters or so. Try fitting 30 nalgene bottles into a 30L pack, it won't work.

So when people talk about something as being "the size of a nalgene bottle", they don't mean 1 liter (or if they do, they're a little confused).
Just measured the bottle in a big pot of water. The volume increased by 1.2L once I dumped it in. It took about 1.05L when filled to the neck. None of these bags are anywhere close to 1.2L.
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post #44 of (permalink) Old 04-05-2015, 08:18 PM
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Doesn't look to me this way:



That's at least 4-5 bottles. Some people are having hard time judging the real volume objectively. 4-5 L is as small as I've seen. It's definitely small, but not Nalgene small.

Then the reviewer says he was cold at -1C:

As none of my first few trips with the Ultra 20 made it below 35 F (2 C) I was very happy with it. I had it on a variety of pad combinations and all was good. Then I had a very cold night high in the Sierra Nevada where it hit 30 F (-1 C) at 11:00 pm and stayed there. My water froze and so did I.

http://www.backpackgeartest.org/revi...ay%20Estrella/

My experience with bags is that they're always about 5-10C too optimistic in their ratings. Sure, you can stuff yourself with extra clothes, but then it's extra bulk and weight you have to carry, not to mention these clothes can be dirty - I wouldn't want to put dirt inside a bag.



Yes, it's light, but it's not as roomy as a Hubba Hubba. I think your tent will not withstand any sort of wind either. If you go real light, you will have to sacrifice size and durability.



You're forgetting you're getting more comfort and durability in return. On a multi day trip I'd be highly cautious about how safe my gear is, because weather can change quickly up there. What are you gonna do if winds and rain pick up, and you're 3+ days away from civilization?



Depends how long you stay out. If just enough to make quick dinner and go to bed, then I suppose it can be OK. But if I want to stay up for hours to take shots of the stars, or wait for proper sunset light, then I need more than that.



On the back, yes, but not in a storm or when you need to push your gear to the limits. On a hot, summer day, at low elevation in the trees, this is most likely not an issue. But most of my trips are somewhere in the alpine.
Hey Arnold, I would disagree with everything you said and really believe that this is a situation of you not ever trying to pack lightweight and instead, packing your fears. I am certainly not going to tell you otherwise, however. It would be really easy to discount the gear part because I suspect you really haven't done much research (silnylon pyramid shelters well under 2 lbs that fit 3 to 4 people are being used successfully above treeline in 4 seasons). Yes, my 20 degree quilt compresses to Nalgene volume, etc. Yes, I stay warm at altitude at camp in Jasper and Banff. Etc.

Regardless, enjoy your time outside! If you ever want to learn more about lightweight backpacking in inclement conditions, PM me and we can discuss. I have been doing this for a long time and would be happy to help.
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post #45 of (permalink) Old 04-05-2015, 08:19 PM
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i've used this one to -15C and was fine. mine is blue though

http://www.backpackgeartest.org/revi...ay%20Estrella/

http://poormansheli.com/2009/09/15/r...-sleeping-bag/


they exist



Quote:
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Yes, you do have to explain that, because your weight just doesn't add up.



That still gonna get you a 4:1, maybe 5:1 calorie to gram ratio. So around 2250 calories a day. Unless you're a midget or hike for the entire 300 meters a day, you will starve. And forget about having any luxuries on your trip, like boiled eggs and hot dogs.

I can pretty safely assume the rest of your gear repertoire is similar in nature to your food - just barely enough to survive.



I don't need to go over some crazies board, where they brag to each other how much they can torture themselves. In that case, I can hike in a t-shirt and shorts, with a water bottle in my hand. I will sleep under leaves and eat grass all day. Why not? Why would I carry 16.5 lbs on my back?



Heck, I'll carry that bag for 1 night. As long as the bag is comfortable and supports the weight well, it's not an issue at all. I'll have enough warm clothes, eat well, and sleep in a roomy tent on a relatively thick mattress without shivering at night. Also, my toothbrush won't be cut in half in the morning.
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Just measured the bottle in a big pot of water. The volume increased by 1.2L once I dumped it in. It took about 1.05L when filled to the neck. None of these bags are anywhere close to 1.2L.
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