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post #16 of (permalink) Old 02-26-2015, 11:49 AM
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Originally Posted by kellymcdonald78 View Post
The Jeep Wrangler also trades a lot of on-road capability for its abilities off road (see Jeep Death Wobble)
Having owned a few Jeep Wranglers I can say for sure they are punchy off road machines but decidedly less appealing on the highway. However, off-the-shelf, a Wrangler Sahara (2 door) or more especially a Rubicon (again, 2 door) are highly capable off-road machines and even better if modified. I've also owned many ford, GMC 4x4 p/u vehicles (for heavy industrial use) and found the ford F150 4x4 surprisingly tough and capable.

Arnold has a point in that a real 4X4 is a specialized machine, it's tough to find a one-size-fits-all vehicle. However, I'm pretty pleased with the Jeep Cherokee Trailhawk, which I bought last May 2014. A surprisingly good 4x4 vehicle 4-door, while offering nice pavement capabilities. They are hard to find, pricey and on back order.
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post #17 of (permalink) Old 02-26-2015, 11:59 AM
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I can't deny that a good 4x4 is a joy to cruise the backroads. My favorite are the ones that I use to own.
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post #18 of (permalink) Old 02-26-2015, 12:16 PM
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The Jeep Wrangler also trades a lot of on-road capability for its abilities off road (see Jeep Death Wobble)
While it's true that better off-road vehicles handle poorly on road, the "death wobble" got nothing to do with it. If you don't tighten up your bolts and bushings, then any vehicle will make some very ludicrous attempts at driving.
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post #19 of (permalink) Old 02-26-2015, 12:30 PM
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While it's true that better off-road vehicles handle poorly on road, the "death wobble" got nothing to do with it. If you don't tighten up your bolts and bushings, then any vehicle will make some very ludicrous attempts at driving.
While true none of the 4x4s are going to drive like a Cadillac , the design of the Jeep Wrangler's front suspension and solid axle exacerbate the problem. It gives them better articulation off-road, but makes them more susceptible to problems on-road. Not saying its wrong, just depends what you're planning to use the vehicle for.
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post #20 of (permalink) Old 02-26-2015, 12:40 PM
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Originally Posted by kellymcdonald78 View Post
While true none of the 4x4s are going to drive like a Cadillac , the design of the Jeep Wrangler's front suspension and solid axle exacerbate the problem. It gives them better articulation off-road, but makes them more susceptible to problems on-road. Not saying its wrong, just depends what you're planning to use the vehicle for.
Realistically, even a sports car doesn't save you that much time driving place to place - unless you drive well above speed limit.
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post #21 of (permalink) Old 02-26-2015, 01:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kellymcdonald78 View Post
While true none of the 4x4s are going to drive like a Cadillac , the design of the Jeep Wrangler's front suspension and solid axle exacerbate the problem. It gives them better articulation off-road, but makes them more susceptible to problems on-road. Not saying its wrong, just depends what you're planning to use the vehicle for.
In one of my wranglers the wobble problem showed up but it turned out be, as it often is, a loose track bar and worn bushing. Once fixed everything was fine. Not that the wrangler was ever a nimble highway rig but that situation highlights the need to keep the axle, wheel and chassis components in good order.
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post #22 of (permalink) Old 02-27-2015, 01:14 AM
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Originally Posted by kellymcdonald78 View Post
While true none of the 4x4s are going to drive like a Cadillac , the design of the Jeep Wrangler's front suspension and solid axle exacerbate the problem. It gives them better articulation off-road, but makes them more susceptible to problems on-road. Not saying its wrong, just depends what you're planning to use the vehicle for.
As noted by xj6response, the problem is not with the vehicle itself, but with maintenance. Over time parts wear out or loosen up. You can always decide not buy a vehicle just because you expect it to work like new without maintenance. If you do that, I'm sure that would be the least of dumbest things you normally do.
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post #23 of (permalink) Old 02-27-2015, 11:31 AM
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As noted by xj6response, the problem is not with the vehicle itself, but with maintenance. Over time parts wear out or loosen up. You can always decide not buy a vehicle just because you expect it to work like new without maintenance. If you do that, I'm sure that would be the least of dumbest things you normally do.

I'm sorry, but its more than that. There are forums full of discussions on the topic and how to resolve it, people have written books on it, class action law suits have been filed, a slew of aftermarket parts available to address it. While worn bushings and loose bolts are often the culprit, people have experienced the issue on relatively new vehicles (as in less than a year old) even while following the manufactures maintenance recommendations. Fundamentally is it related to the solid front axle design. Toyota's who have converted to solid front ends experience it, Ford F-250s and F-350's with solid front ends experience it. It's a design trade off, as that front end also allows you to put on 6" of lift and 37" tires should you so desire.


I went through this process last year when I spent months researching my new vehicle, and again it all comes down to what you're planning to do with your vehicle.


If its a daily driver that you will occasionally take out onto a maintained forestry road, then a CRV, RAV4, Forester or Subaru XV Cross Trek will serve you well. Someone who wants to go further a field, but still needs to travel 100's of km on the highway will probably want to look at an Xterra, FJ, or 4 Runner. While someone who wants a dedicated trail vehicle with his/her sights on multi night expeditions or going to Moab will likely be better served by the Jeep.
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post #24 of (permalink) Old 02-27-2015, 12:48 PM
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Originally Posted by kellymcdonald78 View Post
I'm sorry, but its more than that. There are forums full of discussions on the topic and how to resolve it, people have written books on it, class action law suits have been filed, a slew of aftermarket parts available to address it. While worn bushings and loose bolts are often the culprit, people have experienced the issue on relatively new vehicles (as in less than a year old) even while following the manufactures maintenance recommendations. Fundamentally is it related to the solid front axle design.
I can see you have hard time understanding the fundamental cause of this issue. You have an axle attached to your frame. You have wheels attached to the axle. These wheels go over a bump and the impact is absorbed by the shocks. This is when all is good and well. Now, in a case where one of the components becomes loose, it can make the entire axle act as a "shock absorber", and will cause the uncontrollable shaking of the wheels. Find the loose component, tighten it up or replace it, and problem goes away. Obviously, people who don't understand the issue will blame it on the "mice" or whatever demon they fear living inside the axle.

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Toyota's who have converted to solid front ends experience it, Ford F-250s and F-350's with solid front ends experience it.
Yes, just like unicorns, flawless vehicles don't exist. There are so many things that can go wrong: fuel problems, ignition problems, starter problems, cooling problems, internal engine problems, transmission problems, etc, etc, etc. I suggest you steer clear of any machinery that uses these technologies, because every single one of them experiences them. Instead, gather a big group like yourself and file a lawsuit against the laws of physics.

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It's a design trade off
It's not a design trade off. It's something you don't understand and, hence, label it as a "design trade off".
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post #25 of (permalink) Old 02-27-2015, 01:47 PM
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If your from the island perhaps you've already heard of this...but you can always join the tesla car share project and donate $15k toward the infrequent use of a lifted tesla....don't forget to stop in campbell river for an entire day to charge up if going to strathcona...lol

http://www.mountaincar.ca/mcsblog/cheaper-than-a-nissan
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post #26 of (permalink) Old 02-27-2015, 06:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arnold View Post
I can see you have hard time understanding the fundamental cause of this issue. You have an axle attached to your frame. You have wheels attached to the axle. These wheels go over a bump and the impact is absorbed by the shocks. This is when all is good and well. Now, in a case where one of the components becomes loose, it can make the entire axle act as a "shock absorber", and will cause the uncontrollable shaking of the wheels. Find the loose component, tighten it up or replace it, and problem goes away. Obviously, people who don't understand the issue will blame it on the "mice" or whatever demon they fear living inside the axle.
Duh, sorry, was too busy cleaning washer fluid out of my gas tank to respond sooner. All these different fluids are just so confusing.


Based on your "explanation" it should be easy enough then to produce this effect on any vehicle, as they all have "Wheels, Axles and Shocks". So go on and try to make this happen on a vehicle with an independent front suspension. You may get shimmy, vibrations, poor handling, tire wear and wander, but not the infamous "death wobble" because without a solid front axle you cannot get into the positive feedback loop that can literally shake your front end apart. In this situation the axle isn't "acting as a shock absorber" because the solid design doesn't really attenuate the oscillations (as an independent suspension would), it just transfers them from one wheel back to the other. As you mention below, its physics.
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Yes, just like unicorns, flawless vehicles don't exist. There are so many things that can go wrong: fuel problems, ignition problems, starter problems, cooling problems, internal engine problems, transmission problems, etc, etc, etc. I suggest you steer clear of any machinery that uses these technologies, because every single one of them experiences them. Instead, gather a big group like yourself and file a lawsuit against the laws of physics.
I've never claimed that there are flawless vehicles, so I'm not sure what strawman you're off arguing with. Yet, wait a sec, I thought you said this wasn't a flaw or problem, just stupid people who never bother to maintain their vehicle. I know this may come as a shock to you, but while all cars have wheels, engines and transmissions, they can actually be different from one another. Some cars have little engines, some have big engines, some aren't even cars (they have these big boxes on the back). Some have 2 seats, some 4, some (and I know it may be hard to believe) seat 6 or more. Some of these vehicles are more reliable, some are less reliable. Some vehicles do certain things well and other things not so well. Some even have well known issues and flaws (before 2006 the Xterra had issues with the "Strawberry Milkshake of Death" where engine coolant would get into the transmission).
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It's not a design trade off. It's something you don't understand and, hence, label it as a "design trade off".
"Trade off - A situation that involves losing one quality or aspect of something in return for gaining another quality or aspect."


This is pretty much a textbook case of a design trade off. Chrysler also admits that it's a design trade off and was seriously considering introducing an independent front suspension on the 2017 Wrangler (just like they have in every other model of Jeep). This of course had many in the Jeep community up in arms, as they are willing to "trade off" the increased risk of speed wobble and poorer on-road handing (i.e. losing one quality or aspect of something), in exchange for the better off-road articulation and upgradability it provides (in return for gaining another quality or aspect). Just like with the Xterra there is a "trade-off" with increased fuel consumption in exchange for a body on frame design that's better off road.
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post #27 of (permalink) Old 02-27-2015, 07:02 PM
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I am a big fan of 4 runner especially the trail edition, you will never regret buying it.

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post #28 of (permalink) Old 02-27-2015, 07:20 PM
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We have the older version Ford Escape 4cyl 4x4 with a North Shore Rack (4 bikes rack) for light duty offroad use. (Alpinehiker has seen it.)

Check the Lemonaid books, the Escape is highly rated compared to other small SUVs.

It has been a good vehicle, other than the satellite radio antenna, the second one has died now that it is out of warranty.

Looks something like this:



For more serious offroad and road trips we have an E-350 Econoline (7.3L PSD) with a 4x4 conversion and a North Shore Rack 6.





I went through the death wobble issue with the van (friggen scary when it happens), it is a known issue with almost all solid axle 4x4s. Had to replace a bunch of worn parts and have the alignment set up by a shop that is used to working on heavy duty trucks. Took some research to find out what actually had to be replaced.

~~~~~~~~~~~~

Previous to this combo we had a Jeep YJ 4cyl/4spd and a 3/4 ton Dodge van. Commuting in a Jeep with a manual trans sucked. Towards the end small parts of the Jeep were falling apart eg seat belts, window cranks, door linkage, water leaks.

~~~~~~~~~~~~

For regular commuting we are using an older Civic, it has been great for racking up the KMs on.

Last edited by CraigH; 02-27-2015 at 07:37 PM.
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post #29 of (permalink) Old 02-27-2015, 07:52 PM
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4X4 van conversion? whoa....top shelf! where did you get that done?
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post #30 of (permalink) Old 02-27-2015, 09:36 PM
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My vote is for the enduro bike, like a DRZ 400S. The combination is much more flexible than committing to any one single other vehicle.
I don't know if your Hyundai has a hitch or not, but a cheap flatbed trailer can be had for ~$500, and a capable trail bike for $4-5K. Cheaper to tow than driving a truck/SUV, as you aren't hauling when you don't need to be. Much more and much faster access (easy to do 70-80km/h on decent logging roads, 15-25km/h on less well maintained ones. You don't need to worry about body damage, plastics can be replaced for cheap (if you even care).
The fact is you can go farther faster (and more fun), than in any car/SUV/truck, and way cheaper on gas.



Downsides are the need to get a license/insurance, and somewhat limited gear hauling capacity. I've never found the latter fact to be an issue, as the logistics can be greatly reduced by the range and speed of access endowed.
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