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post #76 of (permalink) Old 08-19-2012, 09:45 AM
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Quote:
quote:We'll have to agree to disagree on that one, since my observations have been the opposite.
Every spin out I've experienced when encountering a stretch of black ice has been in a rear wheel driven vehicle. I have not had a spin out while in 4 wd mode. Not saying that it's not possible, but more likely to prevent your rear end from fish tailing or sliding out into a spin.
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post #77 of (permalink) Old 08-19-2012, 10:44 AM
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True points. The best idea is to prevent from anything happening to begin with, slow down early, and drive carefull, 4x4 can help before hand. BUT spinning out on ice in 4wd with all 4 tires spinning is also harder than 2wd to recover control, because all 4 tires lose traction. Drive defensively and none of this will happen. Quite often it is the momentum that can get you into trouble 4x4 or 2wd, more so going down hills/mountains.



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post #78 of (permalink) Old 08-19-2012, 12:13 PM
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quote:Originally posted by AcesHigh

True points. The best idea is to prevent from anything happening to begin with, slow down early, and drive carefull, 4x4 can help before hand. BUT spinning out on ice in 4wd with all 4 tires spinning is also harder than 2wd to recover control, because all 4 tires lose traction. Drive defensively and none of this will happen. Quite often it is the momentum that can get you into trouble 4x4 or 2wd, more so going down hills/mountains.
That's true as well, except every encounter I've had has been a small "unexpected" patch of black ice on an other wise bare highway. And in each case I was traveling at about 60 km/h where the posted speed was much higher 80-90 km/h. If you've ever hit a patch of black ice before, you will know what I mean!

If you drive defensively in 4wd, it will be unlikely you will lose control at all, particularly if you have a good set of snow/ice tires. A vehicle with traction control (along with careful driving of course),and as Steve has mentioned, is ultimately the best defense against losing control on ice.

With all the safety equipment they're putting in vehicles, I'm surprised that some form of traction control isn't mandatory for all new vehicles here in Canada. It would certainly help reduce the number of crashes along our slippery, sometimes poorly maintained highways. That along with driver education for aggressive drivers! I'm often surprised at the number of vehicles that go off the highway in BC due to slippery road conditions.
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post #79 of (permalink) Old 08-21-2012, 09:19 PM
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quote:Originally posted by path finder

If you drive defensively in 4wd, it will be unlikely you will lose control at all, particularly if you have a good set of snow/ice tires. A vehicle with traction control (along with careful driving of course),and as Steve has mentioned, is ultimately the best defense against losing control on ice.

With all the safety equipment they're putting in vehicles, I'm surprised that some form of traction control isn't mandatory for all new vehicles here in Canada. It would certainly help reduce the number of crashes along our slippery, sometimes poorly maintained highways. That along with driver education for aggressive drivers! I'm often surprised at the number of vehicles that go off the highway in BC due to slippery road conditions.
Stability control either has recently been made mandatory, or soon will be. It's more effective in preventing loss of control in general than traction control. Stability control has eliminated something like half of suv/pickup rollovers.

I've had "unplanned off-road excursions" while in rwd, 4wd and awd. All have been due to taking corners too fast for the tires on slippery conditions. All were minor, with no damage. This isn't a big enough sample for me to form any conclusions about the drivetrains.

Once snowplow blades have rounded off from road friction, and when plowing a certain type of snow, they leave a greasy slick surface that's the most slippery surface you'll ever come across. This happens at least once every winter on the Diamond Head road. The surface polished by the plow will be so slippery you can't stand on a gradient. Cars with snow tires grip well, and I've had to hang onto the vehicle to keep from sliding on foot down the road.

If you have to remain at a stop on a grade on this stuff, or ice in general, don't leave your car idling. The vibration from the engine will cause it to slide away. Shutting it off will let the warm tires melt pits into the ice, so it will stay put.
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post #80 of (permalink) Old 08-21-2012, 10:19 PM
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wow
some serious overall BS here, but this thread has not right or wrong answers.
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post #81 of (permalink) Old 08-22-2012, 08:13 AM
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Quote:
quote:Stability control either has recently been made mandatory, or soon will be. It's more effective in preventing loss of control in general than traction control. Stability control has eliminated something like half of suv/pickup rollovers.
Stability control essentially is a form of traction control that I was referring to, that prevents wheels slipping on a slippery surface where they shouldn't be. I wasn't aware however, that traction control and stability control are designated as two different systems in vehicles. Traction control is used primarily to prevent from getting stuck, whereas stability control attempts to keep the vehicle going in the direction intended. The way I see it is that stability control is just a more comprehensive form of traction control.

You could have a simple system of traction/stability control by preventing wheel spin with individual braking (ABS) on individual wheels that turn faster than they should. This will give you both better traction and stability!

Quote:
quote:Once snowplow blades have rounded off from road friction, and when plowing a certain type of snow, they leave a greasy slick surface that's the most slippery surface you'll ever come across.
It seems that you've never encountered black ice on the highway!
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post #82 of (permalink) Old 08-23-2012, 12:30 AM
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Quote:
quote:Originally posted by path finder

Quote:
quote:Stability control either has recently been made mandatory, or soon will be. It's more effective in preventing loss of control in general than traction control. Stability control has eliminated something like half of suv/pickup rollovers.
Stability control essentially is a form of traction control that I was referring to, that prevents wheels slipping on a slippery surface where they shouldn't be. I wasn't aware however, that traction control and stability control are designated as two different systems in vehicles. Traction control is used primarily to prevent from getting stuck, whereas stability control attempts to keep the vehicle going in the direction intended. The way I see it is that stability control is just a more comprehensive form of traction control.

You could have a simple system of traction/stability control by preventing wheel spin with individual braking (ABS) on individual wheels that turn faster than they should. This will give you both better traction and stability!

Quote:
quote:Once snowplow blades have rounded off from road friction, and when plowing a certain type of snow, they leave a greasy slick surface that's the most slippery surface you'll ever come across.
It seems that you've never encountered black ice on the highway!
Stability control and traction control might seem to be very similar, but actually are quite different.

Stability control typically has sensors monitoring things like steering wheel angle, speed, yaw forces, and then brakes individual wheels to limit what is computed to be a loss of control from oversteer or understeer. I've felt this brake an inside rear wheel when cornering a bit fast on the highway.

Traction control uses the ABS brake system sort of backwards to snub wheels that are detected to be spinning. Traction control usually also has a function to back off the throttle if wheelspin is persistent or includes several wheels. Modern vehicles seem to be relying more on this and less on limited slip mechanisms. In fact, if you add this to a plain old 4x4 with open differentials, it performs like awd, or better.

On a vehicle lacking traction control, you can fake it to some extent, stopping wheelspin by using the brakes while keeping enough throttle on to keep moving.

There are situations where it can be an advantage to be able to shut off these systems.

My own experience is that the slick surface snowplows can leave in some conditions is more slippery than black ice.
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post #83 of (permalink) Old 08-23-2012, 06:32 AM
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Isn't technology wonderful? It all comes down to driving as if you want to live till you are 90 and realize you might as well enjoy the view at a lesser speed. Speed does not kill, over confidence does.
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post #84 of (permalink) Old 08-23-2012, 11:47 AM
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Quote:
quote:Stability control and traction control might seem to be very similar, but actually are quite different.
The point I was trying to make is that traction control does help improve the stability, as it will assist in preventing loss of control in the first place, caused by wheel slippage, particularly if you have awd. As mentioned, stability control is really just a more comprehensive form of traction control. Right you are that stability control has additional sensors monitoring the overall track of the vehicle. But it's good that these systems are being implemented into new vehicles, as they will help prevent needless accidents.

Quote:
quote:My own experience is that the slick surface snowplows can leave in some conditions is more slippery than black ice.
I've experience the slick surface snowplows on the Diamond Head Road, when you get out of your vehicle on a slope and begin sliding down, thinking you're not going to stop till you get to Squamish. But I've also experienced stretches of black ice where it was difficult to walk across on a flat section of road.

Quote:
quote: Isn't technology wonderful? It all comes down to driving as if you want to live till you are 90 and realize you might as well enjoy the view at a lesser speed. Speed does not kill, over confidence does.
That is true, however, our highways are not always maintained well in winter. You can be driving along a highway for hundreds of kilometers on bare pavement, and then suddenly encounter a stretch of black ice that's not visible, which can be difficult to navigate in speeds much lower than those posted. In many cases it's aggressive drivers to blame, but sudden changes in road conditions are also a factor for even cautious drivers! That is where technology can help.
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post #85 of (permalink) Old 08-23-2012, 12:06 PM
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Quote:
quote:Originally posted by Dru

If you like Nissans get yourself one of the 4x4 Xtrails.
are they any better than Rav4/CRVs, or other "cute" SUVs? (in terms of clearance/angles/etc.?)

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post #86 of (permalink) Old 08-23-2012, 04:00 PM
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Quote:
quote:Originally posted by timv

Quote:
quote:Originally posted by Dru

If you like Nissans get yourself one of the 4x4 Xtrails.
are they any better than Rav4/CRVs, or other "cute" SUVs? (in terms of clearance/angles/etc.?)

When we were shopping for a small suv, the analysis led to the Xtrail as our first choice. In Australia they have gained a good reputation for moderate offroading. HOWEVER, I was a bit put off because the Xtrail seemed overpriced and you could only get traction and stability control if you shelled out for the most expensive LE version ($35,000 in 2005).

We'd heard a new generation Grand Vitara was about to be released, and we waited to see if it still came with a low range. Turned out it did, but only if you bought the most expensive version. But that was still thousands less than the Xtrail, which didn't offer a low range at all. Since then, most Grand Vitaras have the low range.

The Xtrail is still appealing for off-road capability, long flat roof (for carrying paddlecraft), lots of room for cargo, and drink chillers. They seem to have been reliable. They've retained their value so used ones are fairly expensive. Some may dislike the quirky central instruments. I'd still buy one long before a used Forester or Escape. The Xtrail was never sold in the US, and was replaced in Canada by the Rogue around 2006. A newer generation Xtrail II is sold in Japan and Europe. For anyone who cares.

A few people who post here have them, so hopefully they'll add their thoughts.
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post #87 of (permalink) Old 08-23-2012, 04:45 PM Thread Starter
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All I really want is another pickup like my 1985 Nissan 720 4x4 extra cab with a 4 cylinder engine.

Or a 93 to 95 with 4 cylinder engine.
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post #88 of (permalink) Old 09-05-2012, 02:09 PM
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wanted to add this

Not all AWD or 4x4 claims are what you think

https://www.clubtread.com/sforum/topi...TOPIC_ID=52841

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post #89 of (permalink) Old 09-05-2012, 10:34 PM
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I've just parked my 91 pathfinder maybe for good. I blew my 3rd water pump in 6 years at the back end of the tenquille creek logging road. Was leaking antifreeze big time. Had to stop at creeks to fill up my radiator to keep from cooking the engine. Managed to drive 5 hours back home and got the bad news - another $600 bill to fix. That combined with the high gas bill made it an easy decision. It now sits in my garage with 350,000 km on the clock. Tough as hell and it went anywhere but I had enough. Just bought a 95 mazda protege for a grand and am already saving lots on gas
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post #90 of (permalink) Old 09-07-2012, 06:51 PM
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Anyone had any logging road/water bar experience with the Toyota FJ Cruiser?
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