Summit Master
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Quote:
quote:Originally posted by johngenx
The car analogy is interesting to me. We've owned a wide range of automobiles including some near-entry level (Toyota Corolla) and some very expensive (Porsche 911 turbo and various BMW and Mercedes models) and I would say that there is little or no correlation to quality and price.
In fact, the more expensive models have been the least reliable and suffered the most problems. What is your definition of "better?" I would not consider our previous 5-series BMW any better than our Corolla, and in fact, it was not nearly as well made in terms of component failure. If you're looking for a car that can be depended on, our various Subarus (not inexpensive, but priced far below the various luxury nameplates) would be right at the top.
Is "better" more features? Well, then the Germans win, but is it a fair fight? However, our $20K Corolla has many airbags, lots of other safety features, air conditioning, power windows/lock, and on and on. It could be compared to the high end cars of not that long ago!
What about "driving experience?" Well, again, the Germans win here. That extra money buys way better suspension components for a better compromise of ride and handling, more sound insulation, and much nicer interior materials. So, if that is how you determine "quality" then the lux models do win.
Power? Someone mentioned that their BMW was better thanks to more passing power. A Camry V-6 has 270hp and runs to 100km/h in 6 sec flat. It's actually damned fast. Power and price are correlated until the price hits a certain point, and then after that, it's possible to buy a lot of power at a decent price, and there is no need to buy a luxury brand to have a lot of ponies under the hood.
Until the late 90's, entry level luxury cars made a lot of sense to me. They were built to a better standard than cars that cost not that much less, and would last much longer. But, I don't see that today. Today, most any car, with care, will last 300K, and the basic models are the ones that can run to 500K or more without breaking the bank.
So, it all depends on your personal determination of "quality" and "great." For me, we need one car that can carry a lot of gear, drive on poorly maintained mountain roads in the winter, and give decent fuel economy. Would a sleek Audi A5 coupe or BMW Z4 roadster be better than my Subaru Forester? Not for what I need it to do!
So, why on earth did I own a Porsche? Well, I was young, had just made a lot of money from selling my business, and I wanted one. As exotic cars go, it was durable and reliable (compared to a Ferrari or Lotus) but compared to "normal" cars, it was terrible. It ate a set of rear tires every 6000km or so, a brake job was $2K, and any other parts were shockingly expensive. I enjoyed the hell out of driving it, but was it "better" than any other car? Only in some respects. (one thing about driving a bright blue 911 and being 29 was lots of police attention...!)
The car analogy is interesting to me. We've owned a wide range of automobiles including some near-entry level (Toyota Corolla) and some very expensive (Porsche 911 turbo and various BMW and Mercedes models) and I would say that there is little or no correlation to quality and price.
In fact, the more expensive models have been the least reliable and suffered the most problems. What is your definition of "better?" I would not consider our previous 5-series BMW any better than our Corolla, and in fact, it was not nearly as well made in terms of component failure. If you're looking for a car that can be depended on, our various Subarus (not inexpensive, but priced far below the various luxury nameplates) would be right at the top.
Is "better" more features? Well, then the Germans win, but is it a fair fight? However, our $20K Corolla has many airbags, lots of other safety features, air conditioning, power windows/lock, and on and on. It could be compared to the high end cars of not that long ago!
What about "driving experience?" Well, again, the Germans win here. That extra money buys way better suspension components for a better compromise of ride and handling, more sound insulation, and much nicer interior materials. So, if that is how you determine "quality" then the lux models do win.
Power? Someone mentioned that their BMW was better thanks to more passing power. A Camry V-6 has 270hp and runs to 100km/h in 6 sec flat. It's actually damned fast. Power and price are correlated until the price hits a certain point, and then after that, it's possible to buy a lot of power at a decent price, and there is no need to buy a luxury brand to have a lot of ponies under the hood.
Until the late 90's, entry level luxury cars made a lot of sense to me. They were built to a better standard than cars that cost not that much less, and would last much longer. But, I don't see that today. Today, most any car, with care, will last 300K, and the basic models are the ones that can run to 500K or more without breaking the bank.
So, it all depends on your personal determination of "quality" and "great." For me, we need one car that can carry a lot of gear, drive on poorly maintained mountain roads in the winter, and give decent fuel economy. Would a sleek Audi A5 coupe or BMW Z4 roadster be better than my Subaru Forester? Not for what I need it to do!
So, why on earth did I own a Porsche? Well, I was young, had just made a lot of money from selling my business, and I wanted one. As exotic cars go, it was durable and reliable (compared to a Ferrari or Lotus) but compared to "normal" cars, it was terrible. It ate a set of rear tires every 6000km or so, a brake job was $2K, and any other parts were shockingly expensive. I enjoyed the hell out of driving it, but was it "better" than any other car? Only in some respects. (one thing about driving a bright blue 911 and being 29 was lots of police attention...!)
I own and drive several of the models mentioned, also owning a Luxury Autobody Shop, I have the privilege to review/test many others beyond my reach.
In most cases there is an immediate and not able to ignore difference without even driving one km, after some time the comfort and pleasure and satisfaction, play factor and are hugely rewarding.
Financial decisions/burden can differ views, especially on older models , but normaly nobody would take a Corolla sport over a BMW 335I or a Chevrolet Cruze over the Mercedes E class series.
Perhaps it the same with outdoor gear, options for those that want the name and best offers available with a price.
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Summit Master
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Finally stopping that crazy suffering that is ice, climbing to concentrate on great ski tours!, .
Interest: Anything that can drag me to the mountains. Backpacking is #1, followed by climbing, dayhiking and camping with family.
Posts: 3,782
Quote:
quote:Originally posted by Aqua Terra
but normaly nobody would take a Corolla sport over a BMW 335I or a Chevrolet Cruze over the Mercedes E class series.
but normaly nobody would take a Corolla sport over a BMW 335I or a Chevrolet Cruze over the Mercedes E class series.
Also, at the time I was a "suit" but the missus has always been a teacher. The comments of parents concerning her expensive car! I would have no problem ignoring it, but she was sensitive to it.
But, in terms of value, the Mercedes lost, big time. At 4X the price of the Corolla, it was not 4x the car. 2x? Maybe. 4x? Certainly not.
So, is a Mercedes E-Class "better" than a Corolla? At some things, but not necessarily for everyone. Not everyone aspires to owning a luxury car, which negates the point that a "BMW is always better than a Camry." It depends on your opinion of "better."
Summit Master
certainly, its choice for the people, people like to have choices. without factoring in purchase/operating costs the high end cars do offer driving pleasure, no doubt about it. I have a POS Geo metro that I use for a town run about, and prefer it for its nimble and simple quick easy no worries personality. Driving the 535 afterwards is a huge leap and offers solid, confident refinement, the drive is stimulating.
Surely people get some feel of confidence when using an arcteryx product. I have seen quite a few other brand jackets this year that are in the 1k range [:0]
Surely people get some feel of confidence when using an arcteryx product. I have seen quite a few other brand jackets this year that are in the 1k range [:0]
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Headed for the Mountains
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: , , .
Posts: 320
the flaw with car arguments is that
- in terms of reliability, there have been times when "lower priced" (vs. luxury) cars have been more reliable and durable than "luxury" cars ... i refer to the consumer reports, edmonds and other reports from the 90s when it was clear that japanese cars were more reliable than luxury brands ... i suspect something similar may still happen occasionally as the current JD power brand quality report indicate both honda rating over BMW ... http://www.jdpower.com/autos/ratings...ings-by-brand/
- in terms of "performance" ... possibly the brand with the best "claim" to that would be the north face ... not to say their stuff is any better or worse ... but half the expeditions up in high altitude mountaineering seem to use em, they sure market it well through athletes who do crazy things ... im not sure where this dead bird "best performance" things comes in since the sickest stuff seems to be done by sponsored athletes in many other brands .... not to say dead bird doesnt also have sick sponsored athletes, but unlike say eddie bauers first ascent, they didnt send an expedition to mt vinson in the antartica last season ... as a brands like patagucci, north face, etc .... all have people who use their gear to do crazy things, i think that any "performance" advantage is more in a persons mind vs. the other brands out there
im still waiting for someone to come up with some activity that you can do with a dead bird that you cant do with another brand that may well be "better value" ...
maybe picking up ski bunnies in some bar in whistler?
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- in terms of reliability, there have been times when "lower priced" (vs. luxury) cars have been more reliable and durable than "luxury" cars ... i refer to the consumer reports, edmonds and other reports from the 90s when it was clear that japanese cars were more reliable than luxury brands ... i suspect something similar may still happen occasionally as the current JD power brand quality report indicate both honda rating over BMW ... http://www.jdpower.com/autos/ratings...ings-by-brand/
- in terms of "performance" ... possibly the brand with the best "claim" to that would be the north face ... not to say their stuff is any better or worse ... but half the expeditions up in high altitude mountaineering seem to use em, they sure market it well through athletes who do crazy things ... im not sure where this dead bird "best performance" things comes in since the sickest stuff seems to be done by sponsored athletes in many other brands .... not to say dead bird doesnt also have sick sponsored athletes, but unlike say eddie bauers first ascent, they didnt send an expedition to mt vinson in the antartica last season ... as a brands like patagucci, north face, etc .... all have people who use their gear to do crazy things, i think that any "performance" advantage is more in a persons mind vs. the other brands out there
im still waiting for someone to come up with some activity that you can do with a dead bird that you cant do with another brand that may well be "better value" ...
maybe picking up ski bunnies in some bar in whistler?
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Headed for the Mountains
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Vancouver, BC, Canada.
Interest: Board games, Eurogames, Python, Plone and Jeeps.
Posts: 336
Quote:
quote:Originally posted by johngenx
No one let you in. People tailgated constantly, and were much more aggressive than if you're driving a "normal" car. The Corolla is never keyed in mall parking lots.
No one let you in. People tailgated constantly, and were much more aggressive than if you're driving a "normal" car. The Corolla is never keyed in mall parking lots.
I guess they might if I act like Gob in Arrested Development, "So the guy in the seven hundred dollar jacket is going to listen to route finding advice from the guy in the three hundred dollar jacket? Come on!"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=81Nl7VYFEaI
Off the Beaten Path
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Nanaimo, BC, Canada.
Interest: Skiing,Mountain Biking, Surfing, Hiking, Climbing
Posts: 560
Quote:
quote:Originally posted by bearbreeder
im still waiting for someone to come up with some activity that you can do with a dead bird that you cant do with another brand that may well be "better value" ...
im still waiting for someone to come up with some activity that you can do with a dead bird that you cant do with another brand that may well be "better value" ...
People have climbed Everest in Wool, Silk and Cotton
You may be more comfortable and have a lesser chance of dying in an Down suit but it doesn't mean you can't. High on the Mountain Top
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: North Vancouver, BC, Canada.
Interest: Mountain biking, hiking, nature photography, astronomy, music...
Posts: 1,581
Quote:
quote:Originally posted by pmicheals
Consider the story "The Emperor's new clothes" and you'll get the marketing picture. There are two ways you can go with price point to grab peoples attention; drastically down or drastically up. If it's drastically expensive then the psychology behind it dictates that surely it must be the best. The price point also covers your butt in the event of customer/warranty dissatisfaction and the garment is returned. Add to this some really good tech writer fluff and bingo you can sell at any price to the masses.
To be quite honest, all the garment Mfgs are getting pretty high-tech on the laminates but after that, a stitch is a stitch and a seam is a seam. Thye just happen to have some good tech writers. JMHO
Arcteryx manufactures overseas now, so I would like to see the unit base price and how much they pay their International labour prior to building in all of their overhead costs and margin. At a $1000.00 per garment, I'm definitely not comfortable supporting those ethics with respect to people earning a living wage.
Consider the story "The Emperor's new clothes" and you'll get the marketing picture. There are two ways you can go with price point to grab peoples attention; drastically down or drastically up. If it's drastically expensive then the psychology behind it dictates that surely it must be the best. The price point also covers your butt in the event of customer/warranty dissatisfaction and the garment is returned. Add to this some really good tech writer fluff and bingo you can sell at any price to the masses.
To be quite honest, all the garment Mfgs are getting pretty high-tech on the laminates but after that, a stitch is a stitch and a seam is a seam. Thye just happen to have some good tech writers. JMHO
Arcteryx manufactures overseas now, so I would like to see the unit base price and how much they pay their International labour prior to building in all of their overhead costs and margin. At a $1000.00 per garment, I'm definitely not comfortable supporting those ethics with respect to people earning a living wage.
An excellent comparison. If you can't understand why it is so expensive, or if you disagree with the pricing, then you are obviously not worthy of owning it, right? This is one of the goals of product branding - create a way of thinking among the masses, to the point where those who concur consider anyone who doesn't concur to be thinking strangely. Nobody wants to appear to be thinking strangely (like 'sour grapes' for example). It must be worth it, right?
Headed for the Mountains
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: , , .
Posts: 320
Quote:
quote:Originally posted by Mike Valhalla
There isn't one
People have climbed Everest in Wool, Silk and Cotton You may be more comfortable and have a lesser chance of dying in an Down suit but it doesn't mean you can't.
There isn't one
People have climbed Everest in Wool, Silk and Cotton
You may be more comfortable and have a lesser chance of dying in an Down suit but it doesn't mean you can't. will dead bird keep me alive when something like an OR would kill me?
it is quite possible dead bird will INCREASE my chances of becoming cougar prey in yaletown
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Off the Beaten Path
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Nanaimo, BC, Canada.
Interest: Skiing,Mountain Biking, Surfing, Hiking, Climbing
Posts: 560
Again no.
If you are wearing a comparable jacket from OR, TNF, Marmot, MHW or any other high end shell you will get the same protection and similar life span
Why does everyone think Arc'teryx is duping them?
Marmot, TNF and Patagonia have been selling shells above $600 for over 10 years always made overseas. But they are not overpriced ?
Arc'teryx decided only use gore and only compete at the top end and they have stuck to that. they are pricing Gore comparable to every other manufacturer using it.
If you are wearing a comparable jacket from OR, TNF, Marmot, MHW or any other high end shell you will get the same protection and similar life span
Why does everyone think Arc'teryx is duping them?
Marmot, TNF and Patagonia have been selling shells above $600 for over 10 years always made overseas. But they are not overpriced ?
Arc'teryx decided only use gore and only compete at the top end and they have stuck to that. they are pricing Gore comparable to every other manufacturer using it.
Headed for the Mountains
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: , , .
Posts: 320
but some people keep here keep telling me dead bird is "the best"
when the reality is there seems to be neither any performance advantage, or "keep me alive" advantage over the other brands
whether you buy it or not is up to you ... but dont go around saying it, or any other brand, is "the best" and looking down at other gear ...
yes weve all seen those people on the hills ...
brands are pretty irrelevant ... its the person using it that matters
'
when the reality is there seems to be neither any performance advantage, or "keep me alive" advantage over the other brands
whether you buy it or not is up to you ... but dont go around saying it, or any other brand, is "the best" and looking down at other gear ...
yes weve all seen those people on the hills ...
brands are pretty irrelevant ... its the person using it that matters
'
Summit Master
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 4,662
Quote:
quote:Originally posted by bearbreeder
it is quite possible dead bird will INCREASE my chances of becoming cougar prey in yaletown
it is quite possible dead bird will INCREASE my chances of becoming cougar prey in yaletown
Summit Master
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Finally stopping that crazy suffering that is ice, climbing to concentrate on great ski tours!, .
Interest: Anything that can drag me to the mountains. Backpacking is #1, followed by climbing, dayhiking and camping with family.
Posts: 3,782
Quote:
quote:Originally posted by Mike Valhalla
Marmot, TNF and Patagonia have been selling shells above $600 for over 10 years always made overseas. But they are not overpriced ?
Marmot, TNF and Patagonia have been selling shells above $600 for over 10 years always made overseas. But they are not overpriced ?
High on the Mountain Top
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Okotoks, Alberta, Canada.
Posts: 1,884
So do people call it "dead bird" because they can't spell Arc'teryx?? [] (did I get that right? what's with the apostrophe?)
I find the array of fabrics and models a bit hard to figure, especially when the salesperson seems to spew stuff right out of a sales brochure. While I don't own any Arc'teryx jackets I would buy one if the cut and the pockets and colors or whatever were that much better but not for the name or twice the cost.
A good shell is pretty important, I've come along way from my days of hiking in work boots with a garbage bag raincoat but $1000 for a shell, I'd be paranoid about catching it on a tree!! (Bushwhack in my $1000 shell? C'mon!!!)
] (did I get that right? what's with the apostrophe?)I find the array of fabrics and models a bit hard to figure, especially when the salesperson seems to spew stuff right out of a sales brochure. While I don't own any Arc'teryx jackets I would buy one if the cut and the pockets and colors or whatever were that much better but not for the name or twice the cost.
A good shell is pretty important, I've come along way from my days of hiking in work boots with a garbage bag raincoat but $1000 for a shell, I'd be paranoid about catching it on a tree!! (Bushwhack in my $1000 shell? C'mon!!!)
Summit Master
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Van, BC, Canada.
Posts: 3,230
Quote:
quote:Originally posted by bearbreeder
it is quite possible dead bird will INCREASE my chances of becoming cougar prey in yaletown
[]
it is quite possible dead bird will INCREASE my chances of becoming cougar prey in yaletown
[
]-Ryan
Off the Beaten Path
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Nanaimo, BC, Canada.
Interest: Skiing,Mountain Biking, Surfing, Hiking, Climbing
Posts: 560
Quote:
quote:Originally posted by Sodbuster
A good shell is pretty important, I've come along way from my days of hiking in work boots with a garbage bag raincoat but $1000 for a shell, I'd be paranoid about catching it on a tree!! (Bushwhack in my $1000 shell? C'mon!!!)
A good shell is pretty important, I've come along way from my days of hiking in work boots with a garbage bag raincoat but $1000 for a shell, I'd be paranoid about catching it on a tree!! (Bushwhack in my $1000 shell? C'mon!!!)
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